Friday, September 15, 2006

And here we go again..

As significant as the Pope's statements on Islam are shaping the world's opinion and in a time where he should be trying to reconcile the growing divide between religions, i find it disgusting that Saudi officials only revolt when religion is at stake. Yes Saudi Arabia is the Islamic authority in the Arabic world but when will it be the Arabic authority?

37 comments:

Enriqueta said...

M,

I do not have anything to say about a specific country.

I just a saw some pictures of "Muslims" burning pictures etc of the Pope.

All i can say it I just do not get it, it just does compute!

All of this Rage agaist comments but silence on so many important issues for humanity within the Islamic culture.

It just paints such a broad negative picture on an entire culture.

Which in turn just makes it that much easier to negate the cultures real value within the rest of the society to many.



I wish more common people would stand up.


I am glad you pointed out the obvious.

peace
Q

jij said...

what, the Catholic church can talk about historic violence and oppression and keep a straight face?

Anonymous said...

mirvat saudi arabia stopped acting as an arabic authority 4 so long now just like the rest of most dictatorships in the middle east,they ve become no more than oil providers to the US harbouring american bases all through their lands in return to the US keeping their flabby old thrones and presidency chairs
when they revolt as religious authorities it's no more than a political stunt to save them some skin infront of the more and ever growing frustrations among their publics,just like nezzar kabaani once said they'r just dead ,it's a matter of time be4 that death is declared
as for enriqueta if u don't undersatnd why some angry muslims were burning the pope's pics
it's not a matter of few comments anymore. at times when muslims and arabs r called terroists ,treated like hell in airports when they wear t-shirts with arabic writings,find themselves in wars everyday by leaders of the free world who say they r fightening fascist islamists (then someone like the pope goes confirming how evil and inhumane muslims r ,esp when ppl were looking up to him to prompt and encourage peace talks between cultures)muslims get to feel that their own security and identity are being targeted.that's a time where u can bomb a sleeping baby in qana as long as u call him terrorist,having evil and inhumane heritage!!!!!!!!
i guess nobody wud ve given a dam if some looser quoted this 14th century babble but the pope!!!!!! i see it no different 4rom bin laden efforts to aggrevate cultural hatred

Mirvat said...

E., a while ago here in the US a group of African Americans opposed to the oppression of their rights (i'm sure you remember) in a somewhat violent manner. people who can afford it criticized their behavior saying that this kind of reaction only reflects badly on the african american community. me dear, when you have your rights and people are not stepping all over you, as an arabic community and a muslim people, if our rights were saved, if our leaders did not sell out, if our children are not being bombed and killed so that your leaders can profit, we might afford a more delicate response. in an ideal world we would all just revolt silently. i'm not sure what you mean by the common people. you mean other than the authorities. well the common people are revolting all the time but who can change anything anymore? look at the US.. it's becoming a military world, the UN doesn't serve any purpose in case you noticed and people are killed in masses.. in our countries, in the countries that matter.. and that's what's anon is talking about, the people are being ruled by US-backed dictatorships. they're being terrorized with intelligence and punishments.. the intellectuals oppressed.. and it's all in the name of power. not religion of course as i have talked many times about this before.

all these arguments revolve around the idea that there's hardly any freedom left in this world. there's a cover of democracy in the western world. for example if the US wants to fight dictatorships like in iraq (has nothing to do with islam by the way, saddam was a dictator yes but he made education mandatory and he was a completely secular ruler such as Assad the father) then why not start with the real dictatorships in Saudi arabia and egypt? because it's a symbiotic relationship between the rulers of the two worlds and the rich gets richer..

as for islam as a religion, like anon said, if we want to go into the 14th century crap then let's talk about the crusadors and let's talk about moses and david and jonathan and saul.. weren't all these religious fanatics.. fighting in the name of god? and more modern history, like jij said, the catholic church did not serve as a cover for the most appaling wars and devastations and colonizations by the west?

what is it that rules islam out? again i ask.. is it not sexy enough? what's the turn off really.. the dark face of a religious manifestation today examplifies in bush and the sorts who are fighting under a fake religious cover but who have the power, the zionists who believe in an almost jewish only world and will bomb anything that comes in the way, and then the suicide bomber muslims.. well from the way i see it, these people are doing the least damage no?

we burn flags and we burn pictures. live with it. you oppress me, you insult me, you bomb the shit out of my country, i burn your flag..to me a group of people showing resentment at blair as he visits beirut is a form of democracy as opposed to not allowing us to come near the UN as bush comes to visit.

Zee said...

wow, wow, wow... you are getting almost as good as me for pushing all issues into a big pot and stir them up. That is not fair to me and that is not your mission anyway. Your mission is to stay cool and analyze - contrary to my mission, which is to light up the fire and provoke. It's an age thing - once you are my age ... ahhh, forget it - I'm preaching - that sucks completely. Do what you want, it's your given right in life to do whatever you want.
I don't have much energy these days Mirvat so I keep it simplistic and short.
Catholicism is a retardation of what christianity wanted to be, or could have been. Catholicism always denied spirit in each individual and only granted them souls. Spirit was reserved to the priests only. That issue later became the obstacle of splitting the "churches" around 1000 AC into a western and an eastern entity.
Islam is in my eyes a retarded form of religion as well, not because it might have been a valuable source of inspiration a while ago, no- because it also (similar to catholicism) never evolved through time, denying spirit in each human individuality.
But however, the pope's remarks made me chuckle - no, not because I agree with his statements, they actually are fairly dumb. It was the reaction of the "Islamic world" that made me frown. Why get upset? Makes no sense. If god is with "them" - whoever that is, why worry. Forget the pope - forget Islam as represented in the present today in the world - find personal spirituality and wipe the scum underneath your carpet. In other words: The intimacy of every persons desire to find the spirit their own way should be honored and respected.

But if you really want to know my opinion:
churches, mosques, synagogues and other temples are outdated relics of no value to mankind, remnants of tools of oppression with perhaps now artistic historical value .... for the sentimentals like me.

Fouad said...

Arabic authority?? Now I should seriously be getting a resounding laugh out of this. But I'm not.

Anonymous said...

You know,

Islam is to me the love I have for my fellow human beings, the way I was taught to respect my parents, help others, see the good in people, it is how I was taught to care for my neighbours, not to gossip about people, not to steal, not to kill, to value true love..it is what taught me to" work for my earthly life as if I am
living forever and to prepare for my afterlife as if I am dying tomorrow"
It is what taught me to keep hope, because "the true beleivers never lose faith in God's salvation"
It is what taught me to forgive, because "forgiving when you can is a true virtue"
It is what taught me "not to judge people by how they look or what they wear because they might be much better than me"
it is what taught me that "there is no privilige for any human being over another except for virtue"
It is what taught me to ask for my rights and to pursue them
It also taught me NOT to harm anyone.

The zealots who kill innocents and find excuses for it do not belong to Islam in my heart and mind..

I am not afraid for the true Islam, I know what great values it promotes.
Extremism is short lived (whatever side it belongs to), it will kill itself, because it is not natural..

People (muslim people especially in this case) who truly beleive in human values should speak up.

Bush and co found a gold mine in extremism.. every beheading, every killing of an innocent soul commited by a brainwashed moron who claims Islam asks for this paradoxically helps them reinforce their theories of war and find more excuses to stay near the dear oil..

What pains me is how those acts have diverted attention from our rights..there are people muslim and non muslim in the middle east especially in Palestine and Lebanon who have been fighting for their legitimate rights for years and years and years, there are people who have been violated, humiliated, displaced, terrorized over and over..there are people (including my own family) whose Houses have been destroyed (three times in my case), who lost loved ones BUT who still believe in Love and believe in goodness in other humans..those people also believe in their rights and defend them, not by assaulting, not by killing innocents, not by stupid revenge, but by fighting back, by building, learning, loving and living..those people are being mistaken for extremists ..this is what pains me, but it never makes me lose hope..
I know how many good people there are, I know how many true believers there are and those will prevail.

Pretty over-optimistic, but this is what keeps me going.

T

Zee said...

I actually had to re-read your post again after Fouad stuck my nose into the mess for just an other time by his comment. (thanks Fouad:)

Look Mirvat, as we might differ in the methods of action, or the analyzation of issues perhaps, we are still on the same track. Basta Baby - ah, I just had to say this.

Saudi is a bloody scary place if you ask me, don't even need to get the "religion thing" involved into the picture, it's just scary to see the humiliation of citizens in the spirit of Islam there and in particular the degrading view against women.

gitanes legeres said...

fanatism against fanatism, only fanatism, more fanatism....
like the million reflections in two mirrors over and over and over again. a l'infini..
the world is so ugly

ou est il passe le bon dieu?

Mirvat said...

zee we had this discussion before here: https://beta.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=14226983&postID=115706219191656921
and me and you so many times before. so many posts and comments too.

aside from that, as people we overreact because our image as muslims is the tool being used to work the world opinion against us so we have to care about that. we both know very well how the jews reached and still do a lot of political gains through sympathy. we on the other hand are being attacked and that is being justified to the world through more misunderstandings of islam and what it represents and an unfair look at our reactions in response to a lot of injustice and discrimination we are being subjected to.

gitanes, le bon dieu n'existe pas.. when you read the bible on the other hand and you see all the battles in the name of god, you would think either he didn't speak to any of these people and never existed or he's just not a very 'good' god.

T.
"those people are being mistaken for extremists" my dear i'm afraid that is their plan. throw us all under one label. focus on the few bad cases and dilute the real cause. makes easier for them to define us as an enemy. makes it easy to psychologically relate islam to beheadings and suicide bombings..
i loved your comment, we stand for the same issues on this. thank you for commenting :) and please keep the hope.. people like us will fight the right fight, the good fight, and this is what islam is about. praising hard work and never settling for your principles. work honorable and work fair. stand proud and love your life. and never never lose hope justice. islam for me has always been, and forgive me, but a philosophy of love and hope. i remember my mother's words and teachings and immediately feel peaceful. stay strong.

Brendan said...

I agree with you Mirvat, but I would like to point out one thing.

The Pope's comments do not influence the world. He is statement was laughable...and means nothing to the large majority of people in my country and the one I am living in now.

I'm an Aussie living in London and I have to say the only thing that sways my opinion on Muslims is the lack of action against terrorists who claim to be your representatives.

Speak out! If we know you don't agree with them we will all stand with you and stop this world from falling apart.

Lirun said...

i think the pope is hugely influential.. he heads a faith with 1B followers and needs to be mindful of his sphere at all times..

but i query (as i certainly did not) how many protestors actually read the speech? how many people have assessed his message and oppose it.. surely people arent insinuating that only the pure can criticise others.. because that would leave the world in a collective state of umpunity..

wishing peace to us all

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com

Ibn Bint Jbeil said...

Why should ANY dispostic authority, including governments, be the authority for Arab or Muslim populations? The people are dominated with injustice and brute force, in Saudi Arabia, Egypt and all the way to the U.S.A. Anything you see in the streets is allowed to happen by those authorities so that it can be politically manipulated by the powers who are in control. The people should be the speaking auhtority on behalf of themselves, not Pope unPious, nor Bloody Bush, nor King Fakhd, nor any other dispotic ruler. Screw them all. And screw all arrogant, conceited, detached, scornful individuals who have a superior view of other "lesser" brown poor underdeveloped cultures. Let the street decide for itself.

Ibn Bint Jbeil said...

and thank you mirvat for keeping the voice of palestine (two entries ago) loud and clear.

oh, and such beautiful song in your previous entry. it's so french riviera and mississippi at the same time.

Anonymous said...

brendan
muslims have spoken out again and again that those stupid fanatics rn't representing them
they have condemned the massive killings of innocent ppl in london subways or the stupid plots against airports each and everytime
many muslims have been harmed by these actions and many of these attacks have occured in muslim countries as well. in egypt,jordan and even in saudi arabia
they do not represent us ,maybe fox news won't tell u that but it's the truth read T's comment again if u want more proof
now it's your turn to say that the killings of innocent children in lebnon,the destruction of palestinains houses and crops to force them to leave their homeland to bring occupiers and the chaois in iraq don't represent u
read again the comment left by T he is someone whose house was destroyed for 3 times and yet he still has room for hope
if more oppression goes on don't blame him if he bombs himself infront of an isreali checkpoint(though i don't think he is of that type)
many of the anger actions that muslims have shown during the past 20 years have political roots rather than religious
if u solve the hanging issues in the middle east, if u try to understand that those fightening in the face of isreal aren't doing this because they r some fanatics (as isreal is constantly picturing them)but because they have been under opperession for so long and coz they have rights to survive in a decent state
plz try to understand the difference between resistance againt a force or an occupation and terrorism
the west seems so mixed up about this issue so now u can call anyone terrorist if u don't like him and then u can do whatever u want to him exactly like what isreal did in that recent crime against lebnon

Mirvat said...

brendan anon's commented is exactly what i wanted to say. before i condemn terrorism i need to know what you mean by that. i never did and never will condemn HA for example which is a justified resistance on our ground against am invading force. same goes for palestinians who are trying to resist the terror they live in on a daily basis. again like anon said this has nothing to do with religion. who am i to tell the palestinians how to fight the illegal occupation and how to resist in gaza and west bank. maybe if i can give them an army and give it a name, say the PDF, then i would condemn all other ways of small operations they might still resort to. yes we're against killing of all sort but we need to condemn all killings to stop the chain of violence and we need to have a fair permanent solution which is what the diplomats avoid, almost on purpose, to keep the turmoil and the profits.

there are however extremist islamic groups that do not, in any way, represent islam. same with extremists in all religions. we do say that these people do not represent us but your media would not tell you that. same way they wouldn't tell you tht saddam and assad were the most secular leaders in the arabic world.

as for al qaeda and whatever, check the movie by alex jones i posted earlier. you might not accept a lot of these ideas and dismiss them as conspiracy theories. the fact still is that many facts are missing, that all these 'terror' plots have turned out to be very suspicious, that fear is being linked to islam and the american government is using that, that some of the names of the heads of these operations have been directly linked to the american or the british intelligence...

Mirvat said...

Lirun, check other comments for an answer

and IBJ, "screw all arrogant, conceited, detached, scornful individuals who have a superior view of other "lesser" brown poor underdeveloped cultures" i love it! and thanks :)

Andrey said...

Hello Mirvat, you said : who am i to tell the palestinians how to fight the illegal occupation .
The question is, do you find the suicide bombings legitimate tool? Before you say that IDF have planes and stuff, and palestinians have nothing, I just want to give you a feel of what you are talking about, with a few examples: (1)Blowing up a teenage kids, outside "Dolfi" discoteque. (2) Blowing up of pensioners, while they were celebrating passover in a hotel in Netaniya.
And here is a counterexample - a legitimate act of resistance (as an answer to "what can they do"): in the begining of the (second) intifada, there was some kind of a suicide bombing, done by "the democratic front of Palestine", it was the first time that group did that, so Israel decided to act brutaly to stop it, an killed the leader of that group (party actually) - by helicopter rockets, while he was at his office. Some guy from east Jerusalem (just a man - not militant) declared that it is not right, that a man - leader of Palestinian party can not be safe in his office, while Israely generals can. So he took AK-47, went to Kiria (where the higher commend of IDF is) and started shooting all around. Naturally all around there were soldiers - and they were his target.

Mirvat said...

andrey, of course i'm against suicide bombing. but if a guy came into my house, robbed me, held me hostage, starved my chidren to death.. i might kill him and myself.. i might not track him down and kill him with his children, that would be cold blooded revenge.

in the case of countries though, that is usually done to pressure governments. same with the early zionist terrorist blows and bombings killing many civilians to pressure the british government to give them the 2 state solution in palestine.

funny you would be showing these pictures to a lebanese..

i do not advocate violence for violence and i do not think we should go down to the level of the israeli terrorism. but i repeat it who am i to tell them how to resist? i haven't lost a child. i haven't been subjected to terror. i haven't made to live in subhuman conditions with no electricity and no food in the ghetto. i haven't lived with no dreams and no hopes. i haven't been thrown in prison and tortured.

notice that i'm pretty strict on the palestinian issue even more than iraq even more than lebanon. while the others cases could be justified as wars on countries in the eyes of many, the state of palestine today is a strict illegal military occupation of the most brutal form and it's not worthy of your defense. no country is worthy of your blind loyalty. no religion gives you the right to defend what your country stands for today.

Andrey said...

Look, in the case of the war in Lebanon Israel could have ended it any day it chose (if we forget there is America), it was unnecesary mass killing. In Palestine - Israel can't solve the situation by itself. Say we would forget what happened since july, and get out to 67 borders, rockets would fly to all of the center of Israel, and in your eyes we wouldn't have the legitimacy to responed military. Maybe you want us to go to long time hudna (the vision of Khaled Mashaal), while borders are open to entrance of all sorts of weapons to Palestine, state of Palestine is not declared, and Palestinians are not willing to accept any proposes to "just solution to the right of return easue" - so that arabs will not recognize Israel according to Saudi proposal... Maybe Israel should except the right of any palestinian to return to 48 borders - then - I don't even have enough imagination of what will happen, but looks like a 1 state. Listen I know I can't do a thing to make things better, the problem is, there is no leader that knows what to do - no one for me to support. The funny thing is that now my hope is for the arabs to lead the way - some kind of regional convention, all that Jordan/Egypt proposals

By the way, is Lebanon in peace relations with Sudan?

Lirun said...

mirvat

once again.. love your passion.. hate your one-sided bias but happy you spilled the beans..

you sure havent lived with terrorism.. you clearly do not know what it is like..

instead of acknowledgingthe cycle of violence you condemn israeli actions taken to curtail the risk to its civillians while totally defending the insanity in the terror against us..

a most unhelpful view indeed..

as someone who has lived with terrorism and has been directly impacted and has lost family and friends.. i can tell you that the actions that you deem highly defensible dont come any sweeter to me because of your views..

and yet notwithstanding the sadness i need to manage - i still hope for peace..

your friend's house can be rebuilt.. it'll evenhas a chance of standing.. my loved ones wont return..

i dont accept your rhetoric that downplays my tragedy.. just because myhomeland is placed in a location to that is inconvenient to the palestinians..

peace is the only solution.. its not a tactical response.. its only viable as a bilateral jointly enforced solution..

and i refuse to have coffee with you until you understand that.. no matter how much you beg me on msn..

;)

Mirvat said...

andrey you still use the logic of an israeli who's convinced that the palestinians will drive them to the sea. after all these years your government still controls you with the same fear. too bad the US is adopting the same tactic. what if the borders were under palestinian's control, and the palestinian had a decent state, the will arm themselves and become stronger than the mighty IDF? and drive you all to the sea?
the solution that no israeli leader is willing to present (because we know their real intentions) is to really withdraw from the occupied territories, to dismantle the illegal jewish only settlments, to give palestinians control over their land and water etc.. i hate to keep repeating myself so again this will be the first step towards a real peace. on the other hand what's happening is that the occupation is at its worst stage now.. so you tell me..

lirun... shocking as always..
their house can be rebuilt???!!!!!!
now your bias is just idiotic..
the victims of jenin and nablus will come back? all the kids in prisons will remain the same? the kids killed everyday will come back? the men beaten and humiliated... have you lost your mind to make this argument?

"you homeland is inconvenient to the palestinians" again shocking!
you're really not convinced in a 2 state solution are you? now i see how you really think.. in actuality i think that wanting all the jews to leave and to take our country back is going to take the same action of violence that the jews did to claim this 'homeland' in the first place and that's why i talk about a 2 state solution.. so now that we both spilled the beans.. let me tell you 'dude' your 'god' given homeland is a country you decided to inhabit. i always think about it and find the idea outragously tragic. it's like the mormans deciding to go and invade mexico because god told them so. and of course as in every book, their followers are the chosen people. your 'inconvenience' was and is nothing short of completey stripping these people of their lands and their homes, mocking their traditional way of life, torturing them, starving them, it's as 'inconvenient' as any military occupation and more..

as for not having lived in terror, see us lebanese we don't like the victimizing mentality, we find it disgusting and that's why i won't go and cry over the israeli terror in lebanon for well over 20 years because i was a kid at the time. 1996 qana massacre well yes it was terrifying but i still wouldn't compare what we went through to the suffering of the palestinians. even my folks who have lost brothers and homes and lives and lived in fear all these years still say, yes but god be with the palestinians for they live this on a daily basis. i didn't escape my share of the israeli terror when i was a kid and i have a scar to show for. and the terror we've been through now in this war, you conveniently forgot about that?

as for coffee, i have coffee only with the good israelis. you'll get there maybe lirun, you'll see our point of view maybe when you're older.

and begging you??!! you stopped being funny a while back lirun.

Andrey said...

look, it is not frightened Israely logic, these are actualy lesones from Lebanon, words of Khaled Mashaal - the head of Hamas - wich rule Palestine, and the fact that this is not simply between Palestine and Israel - there are factors, that would be more than happy to make Palestine into another Iraq/Checheny/Afganistan, in fact the fact that it hasn't became this kind of jihadic hell playground is the biggest Israely achivement.
Here is Mashaal on al-Arabiya.

And, off topic, have you seen the movie "Devine Intervention" ?

Lirun said...

i am actually in favour of a two state solution.. you silly overly defensive nerd..

none of my relatives or friends were killed in the territories.. "dude"..

they were not in uniform and were not in combat.. they were just living their lives..

i am totally for two states..

i support the notion of withdrawing from judea and samaria and i support the idea of the palestinian people building their homeland peacefully rather than spending every last cent on qassams.. to liberate land that we left..

the inconvenience i refer to is israel at all.. not the settlements and not any particular piece of land..

and your comments in terms of the concept of my homeland being akin to some form of lunacy - just go to prove that you are not in favour of a two state solution..

you want jews in the sea - just like HA and hamas..

dude.. while i enjoy a good surf.. i intend to live in my home for eternity..

so wake up and smell the falafel..

today at the gym.. i worked out with two arab guys.. yes they were arabs. and yes it was important to me that i worked out with them for them not to feel timid and shy as they otherwise do.. muttering beneath their breath when asked questions and feeling that their accent may cause them to be "looked at" or "noticed"..

you have no idea of what a good or bad israeli is because for you the only good israeli is a self-hater..

the idea of a self-respecting israeli is a paradox..

therefore i am thankful that you are not anything but what you are.. because if you were in government mirvat.. the war would still be going on..

and on the note of lebanese people not self-victimising.. give me a #$%^&*&^%$ break..

first when the war broke out lebanon was like "its not us its the HA! why punish us for what they do.. we cant control it!!"

then your government was like "stop now and we can secure the immediate release of your soldiers" (clearly lies)

and then they were like "oh but we have tried to binrg HA into line but they have raped our fragile democracy! hang on maybe it was syria.. hang on maybe it was you israelis.. not too sure.. but we're sure we can blaim someone for our sorry state and by the way we will never agree to peace with you"

you need a major reality check..

arab mps degrade and humiliate our government day after day.. they commit treason by addressing enemy heads of state - which in any other country would be unheard of and abuse their political rights - that our democracy secures them - to devestate our foreign relations..

you are so blinded by your own self pity that you dont even look past your own nose..

mirvs.. today you took it further than i expected..

disappointed..

that coffee is looking further than ever.. no kisses either.. so stop begging already ;)

and you're the exact opposite of funny.. whatever that may be

:D

Andrey said...

Lirun
today at the gym.. i worked out with two arab guys.. yes they were arabs. and yes it was important to me that i worked out with them for them not to feel timid and shy as they otherwise do.. muttering beneath their breath when asked questions and feeling that their accent may cause them to be "looked at" or "noticed"..

Was this jym in an airport in America ? I live in Ramat-Aviv, and acasionaly, I am having a good time drinking vodka, and having good time with moslem friends, (obviosly not so religious), while the whole world is going crazy, and you hear "filty infidels!!!" from the east, and "mad islamofaschists!!!" from the west.
Some time ago, after I red a piece about Israel / appartheide resemblances, by mirvat, I went to a shop, and the girl in cheass section was dresed in moslem closes (don't know how you call it), from there I went to a kiosk, for sigarets, and the sellers a guy and a girl, suddenly started speaking arabic. And this is Ramat-Aviv - the (initialy) rich ashkenazy quorter of Tel-Aviv. Some apartheid, I thought..

Lirun said...

this is the university gym in ramat aviv..

i live in telaviv and i have muslem friends as well.. but they are not nearly as comfortable in telaviv as i am.. having said that they are not nearly as uncomfortable in telaviv as i am in any of their towns..

by the way.. not sure why you think that ramat aviv is rich.. it has never been more than middle class.. but it doesnt really matter..

Andrey said...

"rich ashkenazi" - stigma, image
By the way, I think there is a difference between a guy comming from Acco (Acre), Haifa, Jerusalem and a guy from some distant vilage, when it comes to feelings of comfort.

Zee said...

Mirvat said: "i never did and never will condemn HA for example which is a justified resistance on our ground against am invading force..."

It just happened to be that HB miscalculated it's options and as a result have Israel bomb Lebanon 30 years back in time, have a million people struggling to find homes, thousands dead, more cluster bombs and land-mines on Lebanese territory resulting in fatal injuries for decades to come.

As much as I understand that Israel was absolutely wrong in what they did in their reaction ... and and what they still do in Palestine!!!! ... I have no sympathy for Hezbollah either. The price of two captured Israelis across the border and eight more dead during that operation is in my eyes either stupidity or a complete overreach of authority,,, and what a price Lebanon as a country had to pay! Why?

Enriqueta said...

I just a saw some pictures of "Muslims" burning pictures etc of the Pope.

All I can say is I just do not get it, it just does compute!

All of this Rage agaist comments but silence on so many important issues for humanity within the Islamic culture.

It just paints such a broad negative picture on an entire culture.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mirvet,

I had a great weekend, how was yours?

…I come back and find all this fun…its soo nice!!!!..not!


Did you read what I wrote friend...then lets qualify it with all the extra baggage we all seem to lay on everything.

Not,

It was simple comment on the day's events that once again the media hyped no-one actually read the Popes comments in there entirety and the entire world once again goes mad. Were all falling for it!

I do not care for the Pope for the record.


I think the fact that it touched a nerve and led to individuals to organize with banners and mobs in the street is quite telling of intentions and motivations and persons ability to differentiate between right and wrong.

It also distinguishes there overall respective point of view on what is important. (point)

It signals whether you agree or not to the average American that the society those in street represents as whole is backwards.

That is the brush of overall view I was referring to, not saying its right but lets be real.


My point that the average person given the current state of news and information once again sees a vision of Islamist parading in the streets etc and they see nothing when a suicide bomber takes lives just feeds the lines of discourse.

We do not take classes in America on multicultural identity in grade school.



What I wrote was a common thought of many Americans and so many others.

A building of frustration, if you read comments on news outlets like and other bloggs so many people like myself just shake there head.

We do not get into what your history is or what are the solutions for a Palestinian state.


Families with there kids going to school in America, boys off to war see it as all of the same. Complete madness from a society of people that given all the advances have not come of age.

So my last point, your losing support not gaining!!!


Your tirade to bring up every thing but the kitchen sink just exemplifies why America will never truly care the way it should.

M, all can say is I care. I care about the 55 workers we have all over the world. I care about how they work and live.

I also care and take great offense when Islamist push them to leave communities in chezk and Africa and the ME. I though choose a different way in communicating my displeasure.

I do not see how you can breathe sometimes with so much animosity in you.

Maybe I am wrong but it seems that way, there is a ton of baggage in every conversation You do not need to attack me with a linty of history.

I do not set out in my writing you to justify or purse every word to a date in the past where some line was crossed by a historical figure that you think I represent.


Most people just do not live that way, speak that way.

It seems like there is no room to breathe in this blog anymore the air is sustained by a growing anomisty for eachother that is underlining and it is most likely that will not change. No matter how many Arab’s Lirun tries t hang out with. You will think of him as a Isreali. Like I said before I do not see a peace for this generation with the representations as they are.

Many in the west just do not get that there is a difference to understand between a Muslim, Arab, Islamist.

I was having lunch yesterday with some visiting friends from Jordan, my friend’s wife is is a Palastian Arab born in Nazareth who is Christian with an Israeli passport

What a life she has had..she can not even travel in Arab states.

It seems like a oxymoran to put it all in the same title but I get it.

Here is the thing M, Most Americans do not!!!!


You will though find most Americans to have a growing compassion but we will see how the polls go. I do understand our policies suck they matter.

You though need to really understand and except it as a fact not live in some ideal state where it’s going to be different.

Understand that most people religious or not see the form of violence that is respective of your over all community in the ME as a strike against a civilized society.

That Suicide bombers are wrong. That does magnify and justify the Bush admin points to justify its self.

Upon which everything else is built, agree or not.

That is fact.

Its apartheid of sorts maybe you are right….

Except for me my much ado comments were a simple commentary on the days events

Except once again it is why so many Americans will tune it out and watch Monday night football.

Now it’s your turn you can label us some more….

It just maddening!!!


That’s it...

You have a reason to justify that no-doubt all you wrote.


You win its just makes no sense to talk to you, you do not deisire or maybe you cannot see the bridge from the water.

I give up, I just do not see what we have in common.

Good luck.
Peace
E

Enriqueta said...

sorry if it rambles..i just get it over with!
take care!
E

Mirvat said...

I’m glad you got this off your chest E. ;)
No I don’t only see Lirun as an Israeli. I see him as someone who has very different opinions than I do and beliefs that might directly contradict with mine. That is why I debate his ideas and not his person.
I see your point E. Image. The media here certainly is working against us and I know we might be giving them excuses when we strongly react against an insult from the Pope. Well people are very hurt when it comes to religion. As a counterexample Israel is as well. Their image remains intact. So much is working against us and I think if we reacted or not, it won’t make much difference to the average American. Thanks for your concern about me living with animosity. Don’t worry I manage

Lirun said...

ya haram.. miskina.. aiza bishrabi chai? :D

abus einik ya ochti

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com

Enriqueta said...

Iran's supreme leader Ali Khamenei has said remarks by the pope on Islam and violence were just the latest "links in the chain" of a US-Israeli conspiracy aimed at creating conflict between religions.
"Leaders of the arrogant imperialists have already defined the links of the chain in this US-Zionist project by attacking Iraq," Khamenei said in comments broadcast on state television.



"The issue of insulting cartoons and remarks of some politicians about Islam are different links in the conspiracy of the crusaders and the pope's remarks are the latest links in this," he added.

The pope's comments in his native Germany, which unleashed a wave of anger in the Islamic world, came after caricatures published in a Danish newspaper last year deemed insulting to the Prophet Mohammed set off deadly protests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
this was the latest quote out of Iran on the Pope...he is saying now the Popes words are part of the conspiracy for Isreal...


I had no idea Isreal and the Catholics were in bed together, oh no!
the worst part is i think he believes it so now all his followers get to believe it too....and
..there is also a london based Islamic leader that has asked that the Pope be killed for insulting Islam.


M,

this is why you will get no major backers ....you guys got some seriuos PR problems.


btw...if more leaders Muslim Leaders stuck there necks out agaisnt the Islamist who are doing the dirty work.

I think it would go far towards a bridge with the common American.

I really do!

Once again were all pulled down into the mud.


have good week.
Peace
E

Mirvat said...

E. can you please tell me where to find this "there is also a london based Islamic leader that has asked that the Pope be killed for insulting Islam". this sounds very strange to me.
thanks

they mean the catholic zionists of course and yes we do have PR problems

Lirun said...

you have zero pr problems.. you guys spin media like we can ony dream.. the HA spokesperson during the war was soo cool.. he was like some groover off some reality tv show based in holiwood.. seriously felt like lonely planet they were he was bouncing around the ruins showing the world how the ultra groovy south lebanese were suffering.. he was eloquent and trendy and i was insanely jealous.. israeli always has people who either sound american or who carry a crispy israeli spit mustering almost WWII (and i dont mean the allies) accent..

i kid you not..

www.emspeace.blogspot.com

Enriqueta said...

A notorious Muslim extremist told a demonstration in London yesterday that the Pope should face execution.

Anjem Choudary said those who insulted Islam would be 'subject to capital punishment'.

His remarks came during a protest outside Westminster Cathedral on a day that worldwide anger among Muslim hardliners towards Pope Benedict XVI appeared to deepen.

The pontiff yesterday apologised for causing offence during a lecture last week. Quoting a medieval emperor, his words were taken to mean that he called the prophet Mohammed "evil and inhuman".

He insisted he was "deeply sorry" but his humbling words did not go far enough to silence all his critics or quell the violence and anger he has triggered.

A nun was shot dead in Somalia by Islamic gunmen and churches came under attack in Palestine.

Choudary's appeal for the death of Pope Benedict was the second time he has been linked with apparent incitement to murder within a year.

The 39-year-old lawyer organised demonstrations against the publication of cartoons of Mohammed in February in Denmark. Protesters carried placards declaring "Behead Those Who Insult Islam".

Yesterday he said: "The Muslims take their religion very seriously and non-Muslims must appreciate that and that must also understand that there may be serious consequences if you insult Islam and the prophet.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This was posted on the Metro and Reuters.


They have shot a nun in the back M.

It is not going to help the cause of explaining that Islam is a faith not based on what the Pope said. It just proved his point. I found it almost laughable that the woman representive of the Islamic authority representing internationally said that they now accepted his apology.

I am sure that will help the nun.



and Yes I am well aware of the crusades.

Enriqueta said...

Here is the story on Sister Leonella killing.

For whatever it is worth I truly believe when somthing like this happens it has chance to bring those who are moderate to the surface if they can stand up against the extremist.


As horrible and unexcusable as it is her death is. It can be a tool to a peace between faiths instead of the divisions.

Many will use this to divide deeper.

While many are saddend, I know I believe in my heart, there are Islamist who do not want to be known for this.



Hopefully some moderate voices of Islam will be heard instead of deafening silence now.

peace
E


Nun forgave killers as she lay dying
18/09/2006 - 16:52:49

Sister Leonella, a nun who devoted her life to helping the sick in volatile regions of Africa, used to joke that there was a bullet with her name engraved on it in Somalia. When the bullet came, she used her last breaths to forgive those responsible.

“I forgive, I forgive,” she whispered in her native Italian just before she died, the Rev. Malaga Wesson told The Associated Press at the nun’s memorial mass in the Kenyan capital, Nairobi, today.

Sister Leone’s execution-style murder over the weekend has raised concerns that she and other foreigners who have been killed in Somalia recently are victims of growing Islamic radicalism in the country.

Her killing was not a random attack and could have been sparked by remarks by Pope Benedict XVI about Muslims that have sparked angry reaction from Muslims around the world, added Willy Huber, regional head of the Austrian-funded hospital where Sister Leonella worked.

The killing has once again turned the spotlight on the lawless Horn of Africa nation where a powerful, radical Islamic group, accused of having ties to al Qaida, have all but wrested control of the country from the weak and factional Somali government.

Sister Leonella, whose birth name was Rosa Sgorbati, had lived and worked in Kenya and Somalia for 38 years, her family said.

She was shot as she left the Austrian-run S.O.S. hospital on Sunday. Her bodyguard also was slain. The two had been walking the 30 feet from the Mogadishu hospital to the sister’s home, where three other nuns were waiting to have lunch with her.

“She had no chance,” Huber added. “It was like an execution.”

Sister Leonella was aware of the dangers in Somalia and used to joke that there was a bullet with her name engraved on it.

“But this never deterred her or discouraged her,” said Wesonga, who is secretary of the archdiocese of Nairobi.

In Mogadishu, Halima Hassan said Sister Leonella was a “kind person who loved mothers and children. We have lost a great person".

She added she hoped the killing would not lead to curtailed aid to Somalia.