Friday, August 25, 2006

The 'real Beirut' is not downtown..

Downtown is a facade we present for the ekhwen el 3arab to maintain our economy. In downtown though, there's a club. A club where my cousin goes. My cousin lives in dahyeh and he's young and he's lost and he's depressed all the time. He gave up on his ambitions faced by the lack of opportunity that he had to inherit because of the mistakes of the ones who came before us.

In downtown, there's a club, where people dance hysterically so they can laugh and forget the worries of not knowing what tomorrow will bring. One is called Mohammad, he’s from taree’ li jdeede, or 7ayy elleja or msaytbeh or Nwayri or any other modest area in ‘real Beirut’. He was raised to nationalism. His dad knew abu 3ammar. He tutors kids in a Palestinian refugee camp, next to mar elias, a place in ‘real Beirut’.

In downtown, there’s a restaurant. The first that opened in downtown Beirut. A guy named Georges works there. He lives in Shiyye7 or 7adath. He grew up in Jnoub, in Bint Jbeil with his family. He knows the Qoran by heart. His family is modest. They now live in Baalbak. He has a rich uncle in Dubai and he was offered a job there. Georges doesn’t want to leave Lebanon.

In downtown Beirut, there’s a café, where Akram works. Akram is from 3alay. His father died in the civil war. He forgot the ‘old scars’. He’s a funny kid with blue eyes. He wants to live and to laugh. In downtown Beirut there’s a Palestinian guy, he says he’s Lebanese now. He loves this country with all his heart. He lives in a modest apartment with his mother and wife and children. He works as a driver for a rich Saudi family.

Beirut is a modest city. The people are modest people. They try to forget the pain yet they live it once again. Beirut is not just Verdun and Hamra and Achrafiyeh. But Verdun is not just fancy malls, Verdun has Syyar el darak and it's close to 3aysha Bakkar. And in Achrafiye there's Sassine but also 7ay el syrian. There's Al Dente and Friends burger. There's le cemier and Crystal.

Beirut is a broken woman. A woman who accessorizes to make her living while she suffers in silence. Her father died and left her to the world.

Beirut cries Beirut. Beirut cries the South. Beirut lost the dreams.

All we have left is our patriotism. As exaggerated as it might feel or seem. I kept seeing a new divide in this war. I heard them use labels to describe our population. I heard bourgeoisie to describe the ‘real Beirut’. I have never lived a real Beirut and a fake Beirut. I have never seen bourgeoisie in my Beirut. They label us. They fail to recognize that we’re not just Akram and Ali and Omar and Paul. We are a not a mosaic, we are a kaleidoscope. An ever changing pattern of identities. The men in power might have us labeled but I refuse to think we are. The people who fall for it are, in my eyes, not true Lebanese. It is hard to ignore facts but I choose to marginalize it as error. Our writings were about memories. Our writings did not reflect our present reality. We wanted to escape for moments or simply dream of another reality. Our writings did not mourn the South. How can you write about the South without mourning. We wanted to bring happy memories and remind you why you should hang on and fight with all you've got. Our writings were like Beirut, shined up to please while bleeding on the inside. We wanted to please our soul and yours and of that we're guilty.

We all live in a ghetto. I live in an emotional ghetto in the US. If we didn’t believe in our unity, who will? It is not a balsam, it is a recipe for change.

But who dares to dream in times of war?

87 comments:

Lirun said...

thank you for your window..

i hope to go there myself one day as a welcomed israeli tourist and have my own perception of the real beirut..

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com

Zee said...

Oh Mirvat, as beautiful as your words are, and as talented as your description is, as soulful as your images rise ...
I can't finish my train of thought. It is not time.
I must wait. Even I have to learn patience.

rouba said...

so true! read archmem's piece yest, can't agree more.

Mirvat said...

lirun, i'm sorry to say this but the image of israeli tourists in beirut gives me an upset stomach. not in disgust of course, in anxiousness.. this is how bad it is. now..

Zee, yeah i don't want to hear the rest :)

rouba, i do too agree to what arch said, i still think that it's not just ghetto and real beirut, it's a spectrum of identities... i don't know what the solution is with the increase in the economical divide.. the only solution would be for the shia to cach in on military success politically and to revive the people.. that of course will piss off the rest of the country..that's the road to the clach, the guarantee to the civil war.. what do you suppose should be done? so yeah i agree with arch but i don't know what should be done about it.

benji said...

israeli tourists in lebanon
lebanese tourists in tel aviv thats normal
what is going on now an what has been going on for a long time' too long' in my opinion is insanity
call me an incurable optimist but i hope to surf off the beautiful beaches of beirut/

Mirvat said...

benji, no my dear.. it never will be normal. maybe two three generations after me..maybe not.
and it's really not what's going on now that's holding the co-existence, it's what's been going on all this time.

a co-existence will be possible if it's real, nothing real has been put forth in terms of plans or intentions, so be it..

Anonymous said...

http://cedarfree.blogspot.com/2006/08/dehumanizing-enemy_20.html#links

Mirvat said...

anon,
i don't know is you saw the footage the author is describing. from his criticism i still assume he hasn't.
i didn't see anybody stepping on body parts in the movie. as for the remaining of the dead, it was bits and pieces, quite disturbing to see, the people were showing these as they were picking them up and not parading them. did you want a dignified funeral with a service? give them time to burry the burned children and to put together body parts of the hundreds of their civilian children and women they have on their hands first, then they'll give the enemy soldiers a proper burrial.
the people in these villages that you see in that film are good modest honest and merciful people, they do not disrespect the dead.

how this was morally equated to the girls signing those rockets is beyond me..

Mr. N. said...

I am not sure I understand what Beirut it is that you want.

Mirvat said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Mirvat said...

how foolish would be of me to pretend that i know..

beirut, my beirut, is the permissive medium that allows all these ideas and identities to be and to exist. it's a place that allows each and every one of us to live and be protected and respected by the our government and to only have to welcome foreigners who will come to serve the well being of lebanon in the context of tourrism and business and prosperity, a place of co-existence where our beliefs and morals are not ideologies that drive us apart and where our different, even opposite, identification with lebanon as a medium, of belonging does not have to be opportunity for clashes but a chance of helping out and mutual respect and widening our perspectives. beirut also, my beirut, is arabic. it doesn't sell out and doesn't compromise the lives of its children or its brothers.
it's equal opportunity for all, it's opposition to oppression but a solid thruthful one without hidden agendas and extenal pressures from the left or from the right.
it's a principle and it should be made with conviction and by choice.
it's jemayyil's post presidency's model for honest unity and dignity while keeping nasrallah's arabic (and not religious) cause.

basically it's a vision and a dream and it's faced with arch's realititic portray of what we hand in hands. the ghetto versus the festivities in brumanna for once.
dare we dream?

benji said...

well' listen, i know that a lot has to be done and that mutual trust has to be built and talks will be held and there will be tough negotiations etc etc but
i think that peace will be like waking up from a bad dream and after we reach it we will ask ourselves why we didnt achieve this sooner/

Mirvat said...

benji you make it sound like our only problem is politics, well start by working on the hate to stop and we'll see.. this is a symbolic example, on the streets, man to man, irrespective of bulldozers and orders and wars and bombs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPXpL-Nydx4&NR

_z. said...

bataleh inte ya mirvat. 3azimeh inte!

but I do somehow agree with archmemory.
Many of the zones and areas that were destroyed were actually part of a zoning plan and a new urbanism plan that sought to demolish them. most of these houses were built illegally and not accoring to regulations and codes.

There was a plan (by hariri if I am not mistaken) to gentrify the area.

anyway ppl are ppl and it is in everyone's right to paing the memory they want in their head. if it makes you happy to embellish it, there is no harm.. do it.

ma hada khasso.

Lirun said...

i'm sorry i make you anxious.. but i hope to visit beirut in the coming years.. i want to meet the families of my friends and my parents friends..

mirvat i dont like the idea of girls signing missiles.. but even less do i like the flood of children we would see on the palestinian streets with stones to be thrown at soldiers.

it is wrong to mix children into hate.. the damage is enormous.. many will say that it is not about choice.. and that the children partake in the war whether they like it or not..

"With direct travel now permitted between Jordan and Israel, supported by a formal agreement on tourism, the number of Israeli tourists is increasing rapidly. The growth in the tourism sector is producing a very favorable impact on transportation and other tourism related activities. The greatest number of visitors to Jordan during 1994 were from Arab and Middle East countries reaching 553,000 persons. Also there were another 289,000 international tourists. In 1994 Jordan earned US $ 560.8 million in tourist receipts representing 13% of total foreign exchange income and 12.7% of GDP." http://www.jordanembassyus.org/new/jib/factsheets/traveltourism.shtml

also interesting to read about the tourism cooperation between turkey jordan eqypt and israel at http://www.cnn.com/2006/TRAVEL/06/13/israel.tourism/index.html

i think good tourism has some serious peace maintaining power.. and i also think we underestimate how many very feasible choices we have..

wishing us peace..

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com

Mirvat said...

lirun, we were set on tourism thank you very much until your country fucked it up. you fucked yourself up in the process too. we'll recover, people love us, people left crying when the war started and they didn't want to leave, many stayed behind and hoped that'll end soon so they won't have to leave. the arabs can't live without coming to lebanon in the summer and the 14 million lebanese around the war will keep the tourism alive and well. we'll do well without your business, don't worry.

have your tourism with your jordanian, egyptian and turkish friends. god bless.

i wonder when the jordanian and egyptian arabs come to israel and come accross palestinians living under the occupation, do they look the other way? or are they taken on well controlled tours so they won't come accross anything that would ruin their little vacation..

_z, thanks dear, and yes i know..trying to be positive on the internal crap for now.. looking the other way..denying the pathology is what keeps it alive of course but all in time. let's finish up with the overt business first.

benji said...

what can i say? god help us from the religious fanatics
these people in the video are like a cancer in my country they are insane fanatics the fact that we are even discussing them is more than they deserve
i believe they are the product of our mistakes and should be rooted out completly i know that many others here share my sentiments
i cant understand a mother or a father who allow their children to grow up in such an atmosphere of hate and destruction
but i also think that giving up to these kind of terrorists is wrong
they should not interfere with any kind of peace they are a minority which feed on violence i believe that when there is no more violence they will vanish
make no mistake' the majority of the people here are not throwing stones at anyone and also dont want to have stones thrown at them
most of us want this to stop

Mirvat said...

forget about those people, fanatics and ignorant at best. what's really more disturbing is the police who wouldn't lift a hand or raise a voice to stop them, it's as if they're there to empower them, the acceptance of the behavior is what's shocking and it only reflects a policy rooted in the system as a whole..
and that's only on the street..

benji said...

u are right i think the police are afraid of them but if u want to see something more' well'
comforting might not be the right word' but anyway u should try and watch some of the footage from the disengagemant from gaza strip where police men an regular army guys dealt with similiar situtations in a very tough and uncompromising manner/ so they can do that and have done so in the past
the same will happen eventually to the dwellerts of tel roumeida

Mirvat said...

the ones i saw in the film, these are IDF no?

benji said...

yes they are regular soldiers
18, 19, 20 year old kids who are stuck in an impossible situation u can see that those little criminals are throwing stones at the soldiers too and taunting
them
i feel deeply ashamed when i see these kind of scenes which we dont get to see on our tv stations
i dont consider these animals to be part of my country and my society

Haider Droubi said...

well...it is really promising to see people looking forward to have peace in the middle east....but the real policy of Israel doesnt reflect this at all...it reflects the opposite...well..i dont want to see any child in the world participating in any violance or a reaction of it ...but the actions taken by the occupation forced the children of Palestine to go out in the street throwing stones on the soldiers..after watching their parents being killed and prisoned..and forced the eldest to use their own bodies as deadly weapons..i think the world should stop talking about terror and start concentrating on the reasons of creating such terror...some people might say it is about religion..it is not...simply cos this kind of acceptance to death for the sake of what someone think is the 'right thing' exists in every human being,,it is only the enviroment and unfairness that made it float to the surface..50 years before,this sucide thing didnt exist in the middle east...whcih brings up a question; what has changed over here to allow all this anger and frustration to appear?...the answer is the horror imposed on those people..i am not trying to justify unacceptable attitudes,,,but i think terror wont be erased by using power or another version of terror..

sorry mirvat i know this comment is not about yr article which i liked alot...

Andrey said...

mirvat, there are many films like that, in wich you can see IDF not doing a thing, to both settelers and palestinians. It usualy ends with MAGAV - wich are "border police" units coming and dealing violently with the situation. Also I saw a footage of policemen complaining that the settelers are using children, because they know that police can't do a thing to them, you would say that is bullshit, but nevertheless.

Lirun said...

mirvat

you confuse me..

at first you asked me to comment on your blog and now everything i say you shoot down..

its obvious that you are upset at the outcome of this conflict.. so am i.. i dont like my country riddled by 3000 rockets many of which have yet to explode.. yet while the whole world speaks of cluster bombs - no one cares if an israeli explodes.. this is fine.. im not here for sympathy and we do just fine without the loving..

but i am seeking peace with my neighbours.. and i came to your blog on your invitation..

i wonder how many times i deserve to cop your insults.. will you ultimately then claim that you were nice to me and wanted to bridge our divide and i was hostile and arrogant?!

unless you decide that you are open to dialog - i undertake not to return to your blog.. if you prefer to lament over reaching out and making a change then i am wasting my time..

i wish our region peace without delay.. and i wish the same to you mirvat.. may you find your own peace..

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
you're not representing

Mirvat said...

haider the film was showing israeli settlers, children, throwing stones at the palestinians next door. but you're right, in fact israelis today go as far as considering the irguns to be heros when these people used to blow up british embassies and use terror to prevail. they did it out of a deep conviction that they are oppressed by the world. the palestinians who do that today, do it as a reaction to being oppressed by the occupation.

the palestinian children who throw stones at tanks are just an example of how frustrated they are with the injustice around them.

Mirvat said...

andrey, listen to benji. so it's not the police we should blame, it's the settlers.. that's what you're saying? the police can't do a thing to the site of children being stoned? why?


and lirun, i'm sorry i don't mean to be rude but i don't remember asking you to the blog. you're most welcome of course. i simply left you a link to read, was it from this blog? anyway..
i'm arguing for the sake of argument. my job is to make you and the world understand the extent of the damage you have created. i'm not attacking you and i'm not being hostile.. i'm merely reflecting the lebanese feeling towards your country at this moment. so basically you come here talking about seeing beirut and i tell you what a lebanese feels when he hears that.

peace is great. we can't go on forever saying but how can i forgive.. this is why i say 'now'..we can't go on forever hating and being angry, but we can be right now.. get it.
welcome to the site.

benji said...

the occupied territories have been a thorn in our flesh for almost 40 years now
almost everybody here realizes that now/
the atrocities commited there (by both sides)are causing our (and again i mean both sides) whole moral system to deteriorate
that reflects on every aspect of our life
we must get out of there
and we must not expect the other side to be gratefull about this after all the abuse it has received ' thats the first step towards any kind of peace
i hope that the palestinians can truly create a nation since that seems to be a problem there right now but maybe that vwill solve itself once they get their chance
there was once a vision here of a country where all races and relegions are treated equally without prejudice
i am afraid we strayed away from this vision and its time to correct that/
the war can set these moves back but it
can also give them a push right now its on the balance
i have alresdy said that i am an optimist so i beleive that something good will come out of this but i also think that this is a rare time in history when the voice of the people can be heard and can make a differance and i think we should speak up in every way we can
regardless of the differances between us there is one thing in common
we all want this senseless killing to stop/ so we must hold on to this common cause there is no other way

Mirvat said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Lirun said...

mirvat

we all need to learn to forgive.. and more importantly acknowledge..

if you resist these concepts - you are just perpetuating the situation you despise..

i remain hopeful of peace and of my lebanese summer holiday ;)

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com

Mirvat said...

benji, thank you for your comment. i agree with all what you said.

one comment though, when you say atrocities committed on both sides.. i don't want to argue saying that even a suicide bomber doesn't inflict as much harm as an F-16, regardless morally speaking i tend to shut down on whatever follows from the palestinian's side after i hear that this is done in the occupied teritory... i don't blame the iraqis attacking the american troops and i don't blame the palestinians for whatever they choose as means to fight against being occupied (a brutal occupation no less). who doesn't hate bloodshed but on their side fighting is legitimate so i can't but understand it.

otherwise, yes you have to believe that we can make a difference, like i have to believe that there are more people like you out there.

lirun did you forgive HA?

benji said...

its not a matter of blame or accusations
its about the dammage that all the violence does to our moral fiber
and there are a lot of people who think the same as i do over here

inmotion said...

excellent post mirvat.

Mirvat said...

well good. why don't think change then.. isn't israel a democracy? i'm not being difficult here or sarcastic, i'm just curious.. why can't you at least change some of your internal policies? try to empower the jewish peace organizations.. just today in haaretz a six year old palestinian child killed. you live there benji, you tell me what can you do? to stop the demolitions for example, stop the destruction of the crops... to allow the palestinians a decent living.. how can you help them?
take a look here, these events are taking place now and every day..
http://www.palsolidarity.org/main/

!!!

babykaos thank you

Lirun said...

mirvat i dont need to forgive the HA.. as far as i am concerned they are not the party that i am seeking peace with.. i want peace with lebanon..

how lebanon composes itself internally is its business..

i have peace with germany and they have neo-nazis.. so what? does that mean i hate to forgive them? no - it means that no society is perfect.. but as long as they dont bomb me and we can despise eachother quietly then its all good..

ok - that was a stretch.. i actually dream of more than a cease fire.. i want peace..

the Hamas today came out with a bold statement about how israel cannot be blamed for every short coming of the palestinians.. including the anarchy.. the corruption and the failure to make gaza work.. he said regretted the qassams..

i'm not seeking an apology from anyone.. i dont need it.. but is in "vogue" right now to pull heads out of the sand and acknowledge imperfections..

i think this is valuable step in the direction of peace..

un-demonising the other and examining yourself..

mirvat - the Hamas today answered your last question for you..

israel is not single handedly responsible for everything bad..

we are all victims of the same cycle.. let us not perpetuate it..

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com

benji said...

what u are asking is a haevy question and requires a lengthy answer
i havew to go to work now so i try and answer u later

Tarek said...

What a nice post, but you know what, you said "I heard them use labels to describe our population", I think that the labeling system is not in Lebanon only, it's here and there and everywhere in the Arab world. Those who blamed Hezbollah and those whe were with them all took their stands depending on the labels they are using to label themselves as well as the others.

inmotion said...

be charafik ma zhi'te wo inte tne'she be hawde el nas?

I'm so done

It's not even funny how done I am

No energy on that level left to even begin lifting my hand alone in objection.

gitanes legeres said...

mirvat, 3azeemeh fe3lan..
bravo. et courage.

Mirvat said...

lirun, you have peace with germany and it has neonazis as the US has kkk.. fine but you wouldn't want peace with nazi germany that still has a large population of jews who are still being persecuted would you?
i wish you internal peace and peace of mind as well.

benji, please do.

tarek, you have a point. i think when it comes to the outside observer though, it's easier for them to classify us under large terms. for us it's not us labeling ourselves as much as it is a summation of beliefs and convictions, and history of course, that will incline you one way or another.. so politically yes we do fall categories if you will, but socially we do not..

babykaos, we meen seme3ak. mitil ka'anno di''elmayy we hiyye batata. eh i think i'm done very soon. i was just thinking about it today.

gitanes, thank you, nice to see you here.

paris parfait said...

Thank you for your brilliant insights into Beirut these days - the one and only Beirut.

Lirun said...

mirvat - jews are still persecuted in so many ways..

it is my choice whether i want to live as a perpetual victim or as a winner..

i have worked all around the world in major corporations and - while i have excelled - i have had to work infinitely harder that my non jewish colleagues to make a fraction of the headway.. i had to endure working in professional environments where i was told by senior managers that as a jew i was inevitably racist and faschist and i had various westerners viciously chant "allahu akbar" at me in the workplace.. i was struck by one such colleague physically with a rotational movement of the elbow and had others consistently remind me of how the nazi germans would have dealt with me if they had their way.. one lady on one occasion was "consoling" me that i might have jewish heritage but no way was i a "bloody jew"..

while nationally people rarely guess israeli or jewish - i dont hide my jewishness.. i am proud of my heritage.. the irony is that you today are the first person to make me think about it in such a concentrated way.. and how tough my life abroad was..

the reality is nevertheless that i am proud that my country has peace with governments of each and every one of the people who accosted me.. and i am proud that i have been able to prevail over these distructive people and not let them cloud my perceptions of humanity..

when i studied for my undergraduate law degree overseas i used to endure aggressive antisemitic comments on a daily basis..

i still cant find it in me to hate any of those countries or sweepingly despise their populations.. on the contrary.. i am proud that many of those who started by disliking me and my country have since learned that their generalisations were blatantly unfair and unproductive..

Mirvat said...

thank you T. glad to have you back :)

Mirvat said...

Listen lirun, racism exists everywhere. There will always be people who want to burn mosques and people who want to burn synagogues. I’m sorry you have been the subject of this racism. Nobody deserves to be labeled and treated as such. I’m sorry my fellow Arabic friends are being labeled as terrorists, and people like you and me as Islamic fanatics just because they dress a certain way. I’m sorry people see me as something or another because I’m a Moslem. So yes we have been victims of persecution. A lot of Moslems in European countries, a woman put in jail for having a veil on in Turkey and historically of course Jews have been persecuted. It’s the human nature that tends to label a people a certain way so that they can justify for their attitude or lack of in times of a moral crisis. I really don’t want to go into an argument with you that jews are the strongest race on earth right now. I want to kindly ask you how can a people that has been persecuted and treated with such injustice treat another with the same injustice.
with all respect, your ideal and very impressive attitude and willingness to forgive and to go on with your life does not reflect the attitude that has been presented to the palestinians.

having said that i ask again, would you go and have peace with Germany today if it was still nazi germany and though it won't threaten you, it is persecuting other jews who live there?
because this is how we feel and that's just on the palestinian issue.

anny said...

mirvat ....khallas don't you bother anymore ....really, dont' waste your energy

Mirvat said...

eh anny.. kteer zih'ane.. can't wait for next weekend, yalla tell us what you want us to make.

perplexed said...

Lirun,

for your reading pleasure..an example of the behavior of the highly moral IDF:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1643573,00.html

How do you expect people to react to this?
By the way I am really sorry for the way you have been treated, but I for one beleive that people who suffer injustice can feel the best how bad injustice can be and should be the last to inflict it.

Lirun said...

mirvat and perplexed

i am not the spokesperson for the IDF - nor do i see you as the spokesperson for the HA or for Hamas or (for that matter) for any of the many organisations that would delight to see my and any one of my friends' heads on a platter..

i also do not need to consult some UK tabloid for what goes on in my region.. i follow the international press closely and could call it many things other than accurate and objective.. besides - i too would develop a nice anti-israeli flavour for my bread and butter stories if 8,000,000 of the inhabitants of my market were muslims.. but this is besides the point.. not here to talk marketing..

realising that you have indulged in the NAZI comparison before - all i can do - without writing a thesis the length of a PHD is refute the ugly comparison.. i can also say that i think its unhelpful and distracting from the real issues.. because you ignore that the palestinians are not the jews of nazi germany.. they are not passive highly cultural intellectuals who produce classic pieces of fine art and who wrote the national constitution seeking to live as a minority who consider themselves (first and foremost as nationals of germany).. no jew in germany sought to blow up kids and convert the place into "judenland" or claim that all germans should be thrown to the sea.. and even when persecuted - they walked to the slaughter like sheep after every asset whether intellectual.. spiritual.. physical and financial was stripped off them.. jews fought for the german army in WWI and at that stage of history had a higher average conscription rate in most western countries than the majority non-jewish communities.. the IDF is most certainly not the NAZI army.. but whatever.. either you know history and current affairs or you dont..

as someone who is highly sensitive to the pain of the arab people - you are probably aware that many view muslims as the modern day nazis.. having just returned from spain - i found myself repeatedly defending the muslim world from extremely fanatic spanish calls for the destruction of all muslims.. i met spanish people who told me that after 400 years of muslim rule all they could wish for is muslim extermination.. i was horrified.. clearly this is not representative of the whole of spain but there are many people around the world - as you duly note - who see you as evil.. yes you mirvat.. dont look behind you or to the side.. you and everyone that shares your faith..

earlier this year in oslo i heard the same thing from well respected norwegians who were aflush with hatred to muslims.. the list of locations could go on..

as someone with friends from everywhere - i know good and well - that notwithstanding the ugly sentiments that you project my way in the name of muslims.. that this does not represent the muslim and certainly not the pan arab sentiment..

so we can go ahead and distort reality as much as we like.. we can feed ourselves limitless amounts of bullshit and persuade ourselves how terrible the "other" is.. and in this way we can ensure that they will always be the "other".. we can forever blame them for our shortcomings and have a skapegoat for every wrong we commit against ourselves..

or..

inshalla.. we can wake up.. and open our eyes.. and realise that what we really really really need is actually the same thing.. we may perceive that we need toget there by different ways.. but as long as we continue to focus on what we think we want rather than what we actually need - we can look forward to an indefinite clash..

nevertheless.. i am more optimistic than that.. because while you continue to simmer in your anger.. the governments and people of our region and speaking another tongue.. the vocabulary is changing and people are softening their traditionally spurrious views..

i have faith that peace will come between us.. and i pray for a day that your anger can be replaced by the disgust you describe in relation to my much wanted visit to beirut.. and maybe ultimately by a welcoming smile

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
have a nice day ;)

benji said...

there is always a gap between what is called the people democracy and the official goverment democracy some times the people have to force their opinion on their goverments
having said that i think there is a clear fact that cannot be ignored:
there is a big radical change in israely society and way of thinking
50 or 40 or 30 years ago the people who spoke about peace were considered extreme left' outsiders and sometimes even traitors
they were few you could count them on one hand
today its a main issue on every politicians agenda even those who were considered right wing
although i dont put much trust in politics this does relect a serious change in the mood of thew country and while i dont expect a standing ovation
you must realize that its a big step for a country where almost every family (mine not excluded) has lost a father, brother, son, in one of the many wars we had here
its a big change for a country that for a long time demonized and downgraded its enemies in every possible way manafacturing a culture of hate and distrust
i think that a similiar process happened on the palestinian side i know there are many people there who voice the same opinion but still the violence continues
there is no point in arguing now which side is more to blame
i think its more usefull to share the responsibility of building a better future
as for the question of religion and antisemitism or anti any kind of race creed or faith thats a whole differant issue
i consiuder myself to be an atheist although i mutter the words 'god help me' every once in a while
i think religion should not have anything to do with the way countries conduct themselves
faith should be a private matter concerning no-one but the believer himself
its nobody's business who i pray to/or what i believe in
in hands of politicians religion caused more dammage than all the enemies of humanity put together and this has been going on from the beginning of time
its high time for this to stop
there should be no power involved in faith
will this happen soon?
i doubt it

Anonymous said...
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AM said...

I started dreaming ... :) hesitating steps but i am there ... i am quite sure you won't agree with my dream but hey, that's how we all have our individuality ... waiting for your dream to start and will support you regardless :)

hashem said...

ok....I'm starting to worry...where are you? :)

Anonymous said...
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Mirvat said...

hashem.. really busy these days.. but as soon as i'm off i'll post something, answer comments and take a look at am dream.

Mirvat said...

meanwhile somebody sent me this joke:
An Israeli lands at Heathrow Airport. As he's going through customs, he's asked:
"Occupation?"
He answers "No, no, just tourism!"

myworldis said...

M,
whats the matter you can blow at others but when you are put on the spot, put in the limited box of vision you afford others. The numourous labels etc.

Its noted your true colors perhaps...you delete, like I said...a revelation of your real characther.


you call people names..how mature!
people in glass houses should learn to not throw stones miravet..your anger is only sealing your own fate.

Make peace and move through this!

seriously with all due respect!

Lirun said...

mirvat mirvat mirvat'

i reckon you'd be a very entertaining person to hang out with if you werent so angry..

but you know what? i think life is funnier than any joke..

why make airport stuff up when we have the penis pump scare http://iafrica.com/news/worldnews/960313.htm

i've just had a surf at mandarin beach.. the waves were boring but still on the high.. so stuff it.. i love you all heheheheh

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com

Mirvat said...

Lirun, yeah i saw that!
i am angry man, what can i do..i've been through war! ;)

you and benji raised a lot of ideas that i would like to address so again i'll get to that after work.

hi myworldis
i removed the anonymous comment because the other anon comment was just immature and in case it wasn’t you that threw it, I’m sure not because you sound perfectly balanced, then it wasn’t fair for you to take the blame for it.

But anyway, I called people names? I’m sorry what are you talking about?
Also you go on about my character.. see I don’t know what to answer you. If through what I write you decided that you don’t like my character, fine. True colors and what not… again, not sure what to tell you.. see I have a lot of colors.. you say this suggesting deception on my part but I’m, again, not sure who you think I deceived or how.

Yes I’m against all labels. I’m against people who expect you to be one thing or another based on where you’re from. I think a person who decides which side they’re on before they know they issue at hand is a fool. In that sense I have been critical of the government of Israel and the people I have seen to do harm, never all the people though and never never jewish people in general. You would know this if you cared enough to really read into what I write. I started being critical when I started finding out about the Palestinian situation today and not because I was raised an Arab. I am critical about my fellow Lebanese countrymen (and I suspect this is what you’re talking about) when they follow the path of thinking and belonging their parents set for them (but I don’t want to go into that just yet). I criticize a person’s opinions but not their character. And if I insinuate to one person’s true inclination, regardless of religion, that’s to give an example of a group of people who have unconditional political loyalty. The post is about social acceptance and religious, politics affect all of us and based on that I would not accept extremism on any side. This extremism might be presented in the form of criticism but when it distorts realities that we live and know, I do not accept it. Again I criticize ideas for the sake of discussion.

Ghassan said...

yourworld's, "Make peace and move through this!"?!!
hahaha.. it really sounded like an order.
I can picture someone holding a gun to my head, and saying "make peace!"...
in fact, this is not far at all from.. reality :)
and lirun, I browsed through some of your comments; you need to know that Israel in fact needs to make peace with HA because they are a large portion of the Lebanese society, whether you like it or not... and no need to explain to you (if you're old enough) what happens when Israel makes 'peace' with only one fraction of the lebanese on the expense of another like they did before. but again you're not the spokesman of Israel, and for sure you know more then me about how they deal with Hammas...

Mirvat said...

"and no need to explain to you (if you're old enough) what happens when Israel makes 'peace' with only one fraction of the lebanese on the expense of another like they did before"

ghassan, now myworldis will call accuse you of labeling people and not being tolerant..

myworldis said...

It was not to order her at all merely a freindly suggestion.
;)
Actually i have not read Ghassan posts, you though have a history.

I noticed in other posts she has a knack of steping on others.

Yet expecting respect. ie referring to somone as less Lebonese, blasting who ever fits..usually.. Isreali's,Christians.

It takes away from her "credibility" of her words that describe her. Which you do write nice.

Sadly, its overshadowed.

It is like reading a spoiled child that is tired but will not rest because she is afraid she will miss somthing.

It causes the question, yes she seems smart, knows her history but is she actually a person of substance that is worth listening to in this miraid of charachters?

She is advocating what exactly?
We all stay pissed off?
Till when?

Can you not offer constructive solutions?

M,that was my point...btw you say you are lost.

Note, people tend to stay lost in the dark and pretty much unhappy making others as miserable until they actually become what they expect others to do and be.

Try being transparent, you do not like a particular group of people admit that but do not pretend. You have a trail...of who you are to the world.

Being critical of ideas and others in not fun sport for the record for me.
I just noticed and thought maybe some constructive critism would be helpful.

Lastly,note:
M, you tend to sweeten, all smiles and etc when you agree and sours when you do not. Its not becoming.

Especially when you move into to tirade about your personal misfortune and worry etc.

Which for the record who in the world does not have worry?
Who does not have problems?

M, A real problem today would be if you were one of those staying in shelters, having no where to stay, lacking food in your belly.

As Lirun said,stop playing victim.
The real victims are still in the shelters and when they can i hope that they stand up but until they can why not try to, but do it uprightly, justly and with out hidden rasism wether it be with your peers or others.

I do dissagree with you M you tend to generalize...I have read your posts.

peace

Ghassan said...

well, thanks for the formidable psychological assessment.. M, you must feel flattered, after all, ca ne cache pas que tu es une enfant terrible.. hahaha.
but seriously 'world', people do as they please in their weblogs.. I mean, after all it's a personal venue for one's worries and ideas, and it's perfectly expected that they might appear a bit forceful. because Mirvat is not a journalist writing in a public venue, she's writing in her blog...
anyway sweetie, put a notice for sensitive readers, it's only fair, you know..

Mirvat said...

benji i agree with you 100% on the religion and race issues. It is and should be completely separated from the state and sadly this has not been the direction taken by most governments today, including the United states in a very clear example, and that is because governments realize of course that religion is the best leach to be used on people and it is the best cover on the eyes.

Being secular is what will save us, only then people can separate what the religious figures want to convince them as being absolute and unconditional truth. The clear example of the huge divide in the world that is being perpetuated and fed through religion is with the evangelicals who are pushing for wars because this is their view of the apocalypse. At the same time the Israeli government. I mean the country itself stood on the basis of race and religion, for fully deserved reasons historically of course (Lirun), but isn’t it about time it diverts away from that and it turns more secular? Meanwhile the opposite is taking place and you can clearly see the example of that in Olmert’s speech as well as the reinvention of Zionism or modern Zionism as they started calling it in a way that serves only the interests of jews and jews only at the expense of the ‘other’ race. The greed and the interest of the government again are never really racist or religious. These are only tools of hate they use to rally the people up against each other. As for the Arabic world, we also are not of no sin. We are guilty not to have attacked you but to have kept our religion on the front line to explain and define who we are. Islam has to be separated from Arabic states and that would be a step to alleviate the ani-islamic hysteria that is not able to distinguish between a leader’s injustice and the Islamic religion. Our leaders have been models for dictatorships using islam as a tool to keep people silent and afraid and Saudi Arabia is a perfect example for that. You have to understand that these same leaders are the pro-american leaders and if you understand that you understand that they use islam only to oppress their people and not to fight other people. On the other hand there are groups who are fighting Israel for its repeated aggression on Palestinians and Lebanese and these are not driven by religion but by what they believe is their right.
The extremists who go around burning Buddha statues do not represent anyone and they’re as sane as the kkk in the US.

Lirun, you started out by giving the Germany example for peace even when neonazis are there in a way to equate that to the way you view Lebanon and parties like HA. This is what Benji means when he says it has nothing to do with race. Nazis hated Jews just for the mere fact that they considered themselves to be a higher better race. Believe it or not I heard Arabs were next. People you mention to have interacted with hate muslems and brown people for the same reason as well as many other historical reasons.

What you have to understand as far as the Arabic world goes that this is not a matter of race or religion, it’s just politics. As I said before real muslems do not have a problem with any other religion, they consider their religion to be the truthful one as do all other religions but the hate is not a result of racism, it’s a reaction to a history of wars and fights. So Hamas and HA… these are reactions to the occupation and that is well known. Yes HA is funded by Iran, same way Russia sympathizes with Iran but that’s on the global interest level and that’s beyond Lebanon and Israel and even the Arabic world by itself.

Benji hopefully the country is changing and people are softening up on both sides like you say.

Finally, Lirun you paint a picture of the Palestinians that is very untrue and I hope you’re aware of that. You do live in Israel right? The jews you say do not go around blowing up… aren’t these the jews who blew up ships after WWII and blew up british people and embassies and did the dair yassin massacre where they killed palestinians and drove them out of their home? and these same people still demolish homes and treat Palestinians with the most racist disgusting way? Still build on their land to take over and strip them of all their rights daily?... but you’re right there’s not point in this kind of circular logic. Suicide bombers.. that’s very bad.. but a suicide bomber is acting out of complete and utter despair in the face of tanks and bulldozers right? So one the injustice stops I guarantee you Palestinians don’t have a thing for killing themselves.

People who hate me for being a Moslem are not worth worrying about neither are people who hate you for being a Jew. I still worry about the Palestinians Lirun. Those who stand shoulder to shoulder next to jews and rebuild their destroyed homes, have you seen that? And yet keep being put down ..

Maybe you and Benji can sit down and figure out a way to stop this madness, cancel the knesset and start another government with israelis and palestinians, equal representation equal rights, how about that? then we won't have a reason not to welcome you in lebanon as a tourists Lirun :)

apokraphyte said...
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Mirvat said...

"Yet expecting respect. ie referring to somone as less Lebonese, blasting who ever fits..usually.. Isreali's,Christians"

that's such a ridiculous thing to say...

the less lebanese in this post, as it was well stated, are the people
who are willing to give in to the divide. the people who are not helping out the families that were affected because it's shias' problem and i have heard that. these are the people regardless who they are..

to say that i attack israelis, yeah i do. you never hear me attack anything but their opinions though so i don't know where you get that whole 'she' steps on others thing.

to say i attack christian lebanese is just hilarious..

yeah i've been writing a lot not because i don't want to miss anything but because it helped me get through this..i go on tirades about my personal problems.. again you lost me there..i talk about my frustration which reflects what alot of people around me that i talked to are going through. writing is sometimes just to help people identify with something you write, and through that they let out some frustrations..it reflects the emotions at the moment of, believe it or not, a lot of us (lebanese in this war).

as for your other points...you conclude that i'm unhappy and miserable... !!

anyway, if you really don't like my opinions, my writing, what i write about, the character behind it.. if you don't identify with anything here..you don't have to read..

Enriqueta said...

I am sorry this is a rush, i have a appt..

The clear example of the huge divide in the world that is being perpetuated and fed through religion is with the evangelicals who are pushing for wars because this is their view of the apocalypse.

What you have to understand as far as the Arabic world goes that this is not a matter of race or religion, it’s just politics. As I said before real muslems do not have a problem with any other religion, they consider their religion to be the truthful one as do all other religions but the hate is not a result of racism

~~~~~~~~

You know you have a myriad of ideas but I wonder when you are reflecting somone is crazy as you did me on another site did you even bother to wonder who you are defining.

I agree with the poster above.

btw, not all evangelicals areapocalyptic as not all muslims go around cutting off heads.


It might be noted since I have been checking LBF which led to you.. I have had a personal stake in what was going on.

As a result it was neccesary to read up and see what was going on at times almost daily.

M, when was the last time you had coffee and hung out
with "evangelical"?

You have certainly had plenty of opportunites to get to know one...me...but once again you labled all evangelicals the same.

I extended a hand to you and you cut it off. Greatfully I have another... =)

I have had nothing but respect for other people on these bloggs.

I know what the world may of Eve's think but here in the blogesphere you would think people would be able to grow, remove some of the blinders.


After you and your friends comments, I have made a point to reseach a bit on Lebonon.

You have are correct in that you have tremoundous history of inclusivity. It was noted infact as I was watching Cspan yesterday as one gentleman was talking about the different organizations that work together across the different religions.

We have that in common, you and I as people. Its a part of what I do with my church. In fact I will be meeting this week with some key leadership in our state.

I work along side some of the most popular evangelicals of the world,some are tremoundous and some suck!!

We need to within our own groups do a way better job of actually living out the charhter of Christ.

I joke with friends that really piss them off a lot, because I do not for a minute hesitate to question my leadership.

When more of us do that I imagine a tide of change.

As I have from the begining said if moderate voices drowned out the extremism we will all have a day's rest.

I can promise you I do what I can in my little circle...

It in the National interest of the United States to rethink its policy, and its is should not be so tight with Isreal that we allow the Ceder Revolution to burn....

Its that reflection I can identify with you on.

The violence though and blood shed of Americans I will not.


note,
I for one do not like to be called evangelical but if it means do I share the gospel with those who do not know it, then I raise my hand in guilt.

I also extend the other in a firm handshake if you are not interested then lets move on, get a cup a joe and thats it...

you and your buddy have the stereo type but its a label that does not fit me...

You asked in another post about those being threatened made to leave, it was two instances.

They were missionaries...the dreaded ....but still people.



take care,
E

Mirvat said...

"I work along side some of the most popular evangelicals of the world,some are tremoundous and some suck!!"

you have to know that's where i stand too right?

"It in the National interest of the United States to rethink its policy"

and you have to know this is what i meant with regards to evangelicals supporting the war for whatever religious reason, and that i'm not labeling you.

other than that E. we don't have anything to argue about really..

Lirun said...

mirvat

its so easy to hate israel without being racist.. just separate the jew from the israeli - this is so bogus..

the problem that we suffer as jewish people is that there is no clear distinction.. benji might think he is not jewish.. many israelis do - without realising how much of their life is a pure manifestation of jewish culture and tradition.. it's a highly complex issue and people swim in the areas of our self reflection and tear wider divides..

i dont think its right..

its hard for me to funnel all my sentiments about this topic into words.. but the summary is i am attached to this land no less than you are to yours.. andi think your hyper-empathy with the palestinians blinds you from the other side of the story.. you remind me of lawyers i hve worked with who automatically adopt any story their client feeds them as the utter and absolute truth.. it's not healthy..

some of the points you attempt to make are irritating but i dont think you'll really consider my response so im not going to bother offering you my view.. if you really want it let me know and ill reconsider..

anyway if you think that the post WWII events are comparable then liken us to the british and not the nazis.. ;) you cant simply cherry pick your metaphors through history and expect to have everyone swallow the extremism of your confusion.. which (forget not) is part of the banner of your site.. even then i would state that we are not nearly as ruthless.. but people see what they like in life.. just like kids who are disruptive will always hate the teacher who calls them to order.. and lazy workers tend to hate diligent bosses..

i think the point about the arabic world is interesting.. i disagree with you here as well.. i think its not just about politics.. because those that drive the arab world through the international relations labrynth selectively apply the religion issue wherever it is convenient.. for arab individuals it may not be about religion but for the arab world it very much is..

anyway.. i am amused by how people that disagree with me vehemently talk down to me like im some retarded kid.. its very endearing ;)

wishing peace to all.. no gun no knife.. just a heart felt wish for peace

from the "retarded jewish kid" hehehe

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com

Lirun said...

by the way.. to refresh your memory:

Mirvat said...
i don't know why you decided to delete your comment. i appreciated it. i wish more people were like you actually. to focus on humanity and love and tolerance is the only hope for peace and a decent future. i get pissed off too when i hear on western media that the conflict in the middle east is hopeless and when most countries in the west and the arabic world, much stronger than lebanon and more confident in their safety than israel, don't come forth and help towards peace, instead they fuel the conflict for their own benefits while we die.

http://emspeace.blogspot.com/2006/08/peace-lesson-4-practice.html

i guess that was a good day ;)

Mirvat said...

no that was when you were more like benji in your comments ;)
i do want to believe the situation is not hopeless but this is in your hands to prove.

your mere attitude is a condescending one as has been the attitude of most Israeli commentators. Lebanese are not like lawyers. We might sometimes express a softer edge because we grew up on being flexible and willing to compromise. You come to us fresh out of war and offer peace while our country is torn to shreds. You should’ve known better. You should know that you need to let people heal because you’re not a retarded kid. This is how patronizing you have been. Like peace is a gift you’re giving us while if we accepted it our life would be spared. My website banner talks about a lost soul. A wondering person.. whose home was made inhabitable due to many destructive efforts in the region including that of your government. I don’t wish to describe myself as lost on what right or wrong.
I don’t care about any religion to hate people who belong to it. I have a lot of jewish friends and friends from Israel. it’s definitely hard to cross some boundaries given the history of our countries. Nonetheless I do hate what your government stands for. I hate governments that are driven by ideologies and that do not represent people like benji there and his hopes for a true and a just and a balanced peace. I do hate the fact that you think Palestinians have it good and that me defending them is being blindly enthusiastic or naïve. If Judaism is represented by those rabbis who allowed the killing of Palestinian children and women in times of war then I hate what they represent yet I’m able not to be fooled to think that this is what Judaism represents. I hate the American rabbi who said every Palestinian child that we kill is a step further for I really hope he understands one day how much this land means for the Palestinians as well. Funny that you would mention that, I bet it means for you now as much as it does for the Palestinians who were kicked out of it.

I see that we’re not getting anywhere. It’s so easy to wish for peace isn’t? but that’s bogus if you’re not willing to consider what will grant all of us a real peace without feelings of resentment or injustice.

Lirun said...

i do not for a second identify with any freakin rabbi that condones the killing of a child..

makes me sick to my stomach..

i am the same person i was when you wrote your comment.. and im not offering peace at all.. its not some cake that i can shove done your throat as my government did its military might once it felt that otherwise we would cop rockets forever.. peace is something we need to build together.. and i dont want to waste time.. i dont want to wait for governments like my wacko crew and your impotent bunch to get off their big hairy bums and show decent leadership - because waiting wont save our kids.. our leaders dont know how to shake hands.. not just across our boundary but all over the shop.. our region is stuffed up..

and all i am saying is that i dont want to be a part of that stuff up.. i dont kids to die.. i dont want anyone to die..

and your assertion as to my avoidance of the real issue is just as arrogant and racist.. "israel should just concede to everything" - well that is as meaningful as saying "all arabs should evaporate".. both unlikely and unjust..

i am not claiming that i can bring peace.. all i am saying that i wish to voice my hopes for it.. because as you show me now and as many people on my side will show you.. there are a whole lot of people who dont believe that either side even wants it at all..

Mirvat said...

i certainly wish for peace, again who doesn't. but i'm not ready to have my countrymen serve a cup of turkish coffee to an israeli in hamra as long as there's one palestinian living in a ghetto with no water next to a jewish only settlement with a swimming pool.

that's where we are. see how far it is from the people on your side? so yes.. to be 'constructive' about an issue like that will not happen without a huge compromise on both sides.
it has to start with the palestinian issue obviously. any suggestions?

apokraphyte said...

Mirvat,

At the risk of sounding trite, there is hope for Lebanon and possibly the rest of the planet in your patient tolerance, intelligent compassion and natural grace. Suffer fools as you see fit as there is, it seems to me, nothing more Lebanese. brava ... d

Mirvat said...

:)

Lirun said...

i guess you're willing to wait..

you clearly fail to understand the israeli side.. which generally distrusts you.. and instead of seeking to change it you dance back to your corner of the ring and say to me "ruh mini ya kalb"..

ubaaden.. you think the problem will go away? it's still going to take two..

ps - what swimming pools..

Mirvat said...

a perfect example is
"In exchange for peace with Syria, Israel can leave the Golan Heights"

love us or we'll remain in our position, the offensive posture. you have to start by showing genuine good intentions. yes it takes 2, one makes the first step. prefferably should be the one who, i'm not gonna say started it but at least the one who's in the offensive position.

point is, we distrust you too and we have all the reasons to.

i would never call you kalb!! why do you think we hate you as people? now this is endearing ;)

no swimming pools? shiny lawn though.

Lirun said...

mafish shiny lawns ya habibti..

endearing? inti kamaan..

;)

Enriqueta said...

Well, admittedly I was really nervous to check out what you were going to write me.

I am greatful you did not get more mad!

I also hope that you understand me a bit better. We may never agree faith wise but I believe a root of respect is the starting place. =)

I will always try to give that to who ever..though I imagine I can be as opionated=)...but you are welcome to let me know. I am willing to adjust if its worth listening to!

I want to thank you Mirvet and Lirun...as well as the LBF.

After seeing and hearing what I have from freinds there and knowing how were percieved out there. It really stirred me to want to do more.

The meeting I had to run to yesterday was key to the project I am working on.

As I have stated in the past we can only utilize the resouces within our little sphere of influence. ;)

I am greatful I was able to meet with the President of our Seminary were nationally recognized and our hooked up to our Mega chruch...

He has promised his backing along to extend himself personally..in outreach to our Arab/Muslim and Jewish brothers.

Somthing many other states do already but we have not since 911.

Were a community of people we need to act like it.

It I believe is the only way to drowned out the extremism in all our camps.

I believe with his backing we can begin the process in our state.

It did not set well with me to see leading Evangelist meet in DC along side our Jewish freinds saying were United for Jews all on CSPAN and our "christians networks"...How rediculous.

Christians who know there bible need to remember we called to love all people and this end of times rederick is not healthy for our body.

It was quite disturbing to see the Arab American League on the same night only hours later in DC, again on CSPAN meeting there constituants...senartors, congressman..and


I wonder what message could have been sent about the US if Haggee and his crew extended themselves to the Arab group as well as the Jewish group. That to me is being Jesus!!

Make no mistake, I have nothing but love for my jewish brothers ans Lirun you are right we can not seperate Isreali's from isreal...I think you said.

I have a great affinity for our culture and people. My grandparents were jewish my father is Jewish..I would be the first in line to protect him...

I simply do not want to see what goes on in the ME in the US....

IT was a HUGE MISTAKE for CHRISTIANS IN AMERICA!!

Our community has been hijacked and anyone behind the scenes will tell you that maybe not on camera but we know...but great tides can change...

We cannot afford for Christians in the states to come out only for Jews is not accurate and leads to hard feeling for our Arab/Muslim communites. Its also extemly unhealthy for America period.

I am not sure exactly what the greater picture is yet, but I am jsut trying to do what i can on my little island =).


We can only work with what we have and use the resources we can to have somthing real.


I have to say witnessing the depth of hostility and the sincest desires peace..you here its quite inspiring.

peace out...I hope you all keep up the great work.

Mirvat said...

E. thank you very much for your comments.
yes we might disagree on beliefs, or lack of, but that is completely irrelevant concerning what's taking place today.

i'm not an angry person.. i just don't show any tolerance for injustice and i think the world is in big trouble today because many people do..

i really appreciate what you're doing, consider me a modest source for help in anything you need. all religions in essence are built around the concepts of equality in treating and perceiving our fellow human beings and accordingly your mission is what needs to be spread in america today.

thank you and may you be blessed in your efforts

Mirvat said...

Lirun, about that lawn
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/756413.html

arch.memory said...

So this is where all the discussion is! I thought it would be over at the LBF version of the same post, but LBF seems to intimidate some commentators it seems. Granted most of the comments were not about the post... ;)

First, I have to say, I spent all day reading these, what 79 comments? And goodness, girl, do you have the patience! You (and your commentators) have the longest breaths ever! Phew! I have a headache now, and my eyes are dancing. But, on the whole, as reading them in one go lets one see, even your "opponents" (ex. Lurin) seem quite moderate and reasonable. Sure, we all have our prejudices, but these are very reasonable voices, I must say (plus or minus).

As for the deleted comments, one helpful tip, dear: when you're deleting a comment check that "Delete forever" box below the button; that way there won't be a trace left that a comment was ever deleted ;) (And I figure, if it's bad enough to be deleted, it's bad enough to be forever obliterated!)

I would have wanted to go into a discussion more related to the post, and that some of the earlier comments started addressing, such as your comment:
"i don't know what the solution is with the increase in the economical divide.. the only solution would be for the shia to cach in on military success politically and to revive the people.."
Or _Z's comment:
"Many of the zones and areas that were destroyed were actually part of a zoning plan and a new urbanism plan that sought to demolish them. most of these houses were built illegally and not accoring to regulations and codes.
There was a plan (by hariri if I am not mistaken) to gentrify the area."
Namely the (social/urbanistic/economic) relationship of el-Dahyeh to Beirut. But that seems like it needs a whole other post (if not a whole conference!)

Once again, kudos for your long breath and energy!

Mirvat said...

thanks arch,
i know most of the voices were moderate and belonged to really loving and pasionate people.
eh hleket bihal post bass it always brings me hope to see people talk.. even when the discussion gets heated at points, the fact that we're talking is a good sign.

arch we have to have posts on our internal economical/political/social developement after this war but let's do it later.. maybe when bob is not looking ;)

arch.memory said...

'Peace' is to 'Bob' as 'Blessings' are to 'Enriqueta'... So, peace & blessings to all!

Mirvat said...

Lirun sorry.. seems your vacation in lebanon won't happen anytime soon ;)
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/756716.html

blessings :)

Lirun said...

well well mirvat..

it's not like a government has ever broken a promise on a matter of prime national interest.. is it

clearly he is just trying to appease HA and the opposing factions.. otherwise how will he generate the calm needed to go ahead.. i dont judge his words or take offence..

second of all i am a proud israeli and i travel as an israeli most of the time but i am also a half dozen other nationalities.. so unless lebanon is keen to get into some major international strife i may as well get my travel agent to ticket that booking

will you host me?

;)

Mirvat said...

just give me your name and send me a picture and i'll have a welcoming crew for you at the airport ;)

Mirvat said...

i hope you know i was being sarcastic lirun

Lirun said...

dude..

even if i wanted to.. which i do.. my country has placed a chastity belt on lebanon.. im pretty sure they wont make an exception for me..

just so you know - i didnt vote walmart.. olmert whatever