--- "Geagea was chilling in his denunciations. "We will not accept that this government shall be changed for a government of murderers and criminals," he shouted. And since it is Sayed Hassan Nasrallah of the Shia Hizbollah who has been abusing the Siniora cabinet as the government of "the US ambassador" - and since it is the Shia ministers who have withdrawn from this same cabinet - one could conclude, could one not, that Dr Geagea's "murderers and criminals" were Shia.
Indeed, dwelling on his bloody wartime sins, most of which were amnestied, one has to reflect why Geagea's lads blew up the congregation of the Church of Our Lady of Deliverance in 1994; the court said that he wanted to persuade Christians that Hizbollah had committed the crime.
Funny how these things come back to us. Oddly, Pierre Gemayel's murder has had exactly the same effect on Christians and Sunni Muslims; it has persuaded many of them that the Hizbollah, on Syria's behalf, committed the crime. A distressing thought." -- Fisk, full article here.
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124 comments:
It's interesting to read an outsider's impressions of Lebanon. The church gathering w/ all the players, his impressions of Lebanese society and history, etc. So many fesh, creative perspectives, as well as so many missed opportunities and even many inaccuracies!! He told it like it is about GaeGae, but not the other warlords. and Majda Roumi can NEVER be the new Fairuz! That's like comparing coleslaw to tabbouli!
what have we come to!
are we stuck accepting and adopting March 14 corruption and hegemony, or chosing a March 8 that has lost sympathy by continuous and public alliance with Syria and Iran?
both camps are to blame for getting us where we are.
medias like vaultours on the news. causing calculated dissent with al-akhbar and aldiyar on one side, l'orient and lbc and future on the other!
depressing.
and France? Sweet, loving France that lets Hezbollah arm themselves more and more............?
Et tu Brute.................?
I would like to express my condolences to Lebanon. I would also dare point out that Israel's well-being, in a weird way is also Lebanon's well-being, as an armed militia outside the regular army is not conducive to any kind of stability. So whether Hezbollah did this or not, they are backed by those who are directly accused.
Touching.
Condolences and then a finger wagging reprimand.
Look in your own back yard snurd, you have plenty of armed terrorists where you live - armed to the teeth - and THAT is not conducive to any kind of stability for 'israel' and most especially Lebanon and Palestine - as we have all witnessed and have had knowledge of for so many decades.
You just keep forgetting, poor old man. That's okay, I'll just keep reminding you.
And leave France alone, you up there. France is harbouring zionist director roman polanski. Can't show his pointy little face in USA anymore.
See? protection for the zionist who commits statutory rape.
Don't know why you're whining about France.
Rhiannon--
Find any Jews lately under your bed or in the closets? Keep looking! Have a flashlight handy and set your alarm every 3 hours...never know when one'll show up!
Hey snurdly, find any butchered Palestinian, Lebanese, Iraqi civilians in your soup lately? taste it again, i'm sure you'll recognize the taste of disconnected denial.
nothing in my soup.. my grandma made it herself - i was keeping a close eye just in case.. you never know what the cheeky thing might slip in there when you're not looking..
a pity this slips into a factionist comment slinging match..
we can insult eachother all we like.. and in the meantime our neighbour up north is facing the brink of being fed into a political shredding machine..
i worry for my lebanese friends.. their families and their friends.. and for the general populace.. i dont say this as a message necessarily directed at the bloggers we hear here.. but as a fact.. that as an israeli i have many lebanese friends that i care dearly for and i wish them the lives they wish upon themselves.. which by definition exclude assassinations.. turmoil.. and anything but a peaceful and joyous existance..
wishing us all peace as we continuously confront the ugliness of our own faces..
lirun
telaviv
maya the world is split into these 2 camps it seems. i saw your post and i don't disagree. i tend to agree with jij's analysis but i know that we can't rule anything out or know anything for sure. i clearly don't know how constructive it is to spend our lives pointing fingers since it seems to be what the politicians are using against each other and against us eventually.
we're simply reflecting the regional turmoil and as soon as the US strikes a deal with syria we'll see a shift in our situation, maybe not for the best. in short, whatever we say or do, the verdict will come from above so really what's the point of blame.
meanwhile, breaking the shear force of the anti-HA mood in light of this event, which is something you achieved in your post as well, might be a good diversion tactic from a civil fight and might be one of the possibilities that some people aren't willing to consider. again if the leaders are determined to direct us towards that most people will follow anyway.
it's very daring to say that the assassination might be march 14's way of taking the 'political victory' away from HA. i know we can't call victory anything we're at right now but we have to consider this possibility and it's as stern and close minded not to?
so it sad we have to go through this again.. very sad.. we alla yistor..
all i have to say is AMEEN to "Allah yostor"
it just looks like things get darker day by day, and im failing to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
"i worry for my lebanese friends.. their families and their friends.. and for the general populace.."
I've been to many israeli blogs. If anyone wants nausea in their stomachs go there. You can call in sick and not feel guilty. Fascism can only be invented by such people and you'll see when you visit these zionist monstrosities. But if you all want to keep your step light and your hearts not so heavy then read and educate yourselves about the world.
THe best reading materials?
Benjamin H. Freedman
Norman Finkelstein
Alfred Lillienthal
Michael A. Hoffman
CounterPunch
Information Clearing House
What Really Happened
And so much more like these....
btw concerned zionist of 5:20 am. It would be fitting if you joined Peace Now. One of the few decent organizations in 'israel'. Take snurd with you.
What I find most AMUSING, snurd....
Is that you said Jews. You meant zionists didn't you?
I cannot help but catch that SUBTLE NUANCE when you zionists go on the defensive.
You say you're zionists proudly when you are boasting and brimming with over-the-top ego and you seem to have nothing to lose.
Then you deflate, whimper, and go into the "JEWISH" bit.
You really can't have it both ways. The two don't belong together.
Lirun why don't you concern yourself with what's happening in your own backyard for now.. any palestinian friends? i know you have them.. 10000 of which are trying to emigrate since life became impossible and children dying and a new invasion.. any sympathy for them?
Interesting how the topic of Gemayel's assasination quickly becomes a Palestinian issue after a couple of Jews write in a response. Talk about denial...holy smoke!
since it's not an issue that should concern you, stay out of it. if you must comment, you should have the decency to admit that all our politics are equally fucked up and failing and that our situation just might have something to do with the blessings of your government.
we're aware of the shortcomings of our country since we pay the price on a daily basis. in your case, i don't think rhiannone gave you justice because it's not denial.. no human being is capable of such denial. it's straight out racism your indifference towards your own issue.
mirvat, i am feeling evicted from my country! neither camps completely paints Lebanon as it should be. not one group is moderate enough, open-minded enough, fair enough, Lebanese enough!... and we should not play the game of choosing a camp, just because these are the options... or throwing the blame on the other side... we are dividing the country... "un peu de retenue" ...(i should start practicing that... as soon as the terror level/fear for the country level returns to yellow!!)
allah yestor: amen to that!
thank you, mirvat, for coming back with such vigor, after your short absence.
and more importantly, thank you for keeping the light on the ongoing tragedy of Palestine on your blog.
it is political awareness and clarity such as yours that inspires us to keep remembering, and face tomorrow, and face the forces of confusion that target us from all directions, and in spite of those amongst us who just want to forget or sell out.
Mirvat--
In an effort to divorce yourselves temporarily from the internal strife of Lebanon you find it convenient, even necessary, to focus on the external strife regarding Palestinians hoping to find commonality. It's a good strategy for the short-term, don't get me wrong. I just don't think all the focus on Gaza and the West Bank can forever carry all the other problems in the region so under-scrutinized.
Killing is never cool, it's cold - no matter on which side of the fence you're on ...
From all the Lebanese people I know, some afar and some right here in my neighborhood, all exclusively wish to build, create and live in peace. If all nations could live with such a doctrine, we wouldn't have this discussion.
But in all fairness, it might be helpful to have discussions of who is perching peace and point out who the culprits are.
And after that recognition - shun them.
I must add that I believe that HA is stupid with all the glory they gained for reconstructing the South.
Killing eight in a border crossing to capture two for a potential prisoner exchange with Israel was not a very smart move and ended in the last "black rain" of cluster-bombs all over Lebanon, plus the other kinds of demolition Israel created as a result.
Yes I know that there are some of you who say: Israel was just waiting for an opportunity, any opportunity to hit Lebanon.
I don't personally think that this is a complete and plausible explanation embracing the grand picture.
In any case, HA wrote the wrong script at the wrong time. And all the good stuff they try to do for rebuilding right now leaves me cold.
Shouldn't have started that bullshit in the first time ...
So what's that got to do with Pierre Gemayel?
Nothing and everything. Whoever killed him was wrong, and whoever tries to take advantage of his death politically is retro.
Assassinations and killings are not the way of the future, period.
ibj selling out being the operative word i agree.
snurd it's more about trying to understand a common aggressor and defending people that share the same fate as we do, did and will as long as israel won't change policies. since day one i've been trying to convey the message that the peace in the ME will start there, with the palestinian issue. it reflects directly on the lebanese policies since for once there are so many palestinian refugees in lebanon. this is not just my opinion obviously, it's that of almost half the country like it or not.
Mirvat--
Peace may need to begin there like you said...although the differences of opinion is how. According to Hamas the '67 borders won't do. That doesn't leave Israel with much reason to pursue dialogue with such a group.
check ha'aretz's headlines from today.. truce offered, israel refused.. and in the small titles in the margins.. a bus of children bombed.. invasion of gaza..
stop hiding behind your finger.
This guy Snurd is getting paid like so many Zionists to go after every blog that attacks their regime..don't waste your energy on him
mirvat.. you surprise me..
"look at my own backyard"
when have i ever spouted such crap at you when you showed sympathy for palestinians.. for whome i have expressed my sympathy time and time again..
who the hell are to tell me where to place my sympathies..
and what good are you doing anyone by sparking animosity within someone who approaches you in friendship..
perhaps you need a break from that phd.. i think its frying your brain.. or maybe all that time you're spending with my fellow zionists who you research with is corrupting your silky smooth morals..
what chance does anyone have extending a peaceful hand at you when all you do is bite those who come with an open heart..
you are a serial trust destroyer..
anyway.. while we in the middle east actually face the heat at least i can sleep at night knowing that you're blogging away with your cosy central heating..
and riannon.. perhaps if you visited my blog you would sea that i have links with peace now as well as many other conciliatory organisations.. nevertheless.. i assure you that your attitude is purely inflammatory and beligerant.. serving only to extinguish the flickering candle of the peace camp.. good job you creature of darkness.. you're doing it well..
you're right lirun.
This is the same debate that has been going forever. Yes, our current leaders are not the best. yes, we need new blood, new ideas. But this will not happen. Those changes take generations and generations.
It goes down to 2 options. Either hizballa (and Aoun+amal following) or Harriri/Jumblat/Geagea.
Yes Geagea and Jumblat fought like animals. and massacres happened. But those people have learned from their mistakes. Jumblat's stands over the last few years have been exceptional.They stick to each other.adn this is, what we lebanese, need.
Anything is better than hizballa. democracy?Starting a war?weapons? Syria?Iran? Is that what we Lebanese want? "divine"victory?Continuous struggle against Israel?Freeing Palestine and Iraq? I don't think so.
Mirvat ...
am, your post about lebanon made me so sad but i completely understand where you're coming from..
No. Do not LINK Peace Now. JOIN IT.
Take snurd and post 11:06 PM with you.
Oh, I heard that one before Supreme, from the ones who got you almost extinct using the same supreme wording as you just did.
Think about it, if it weren't for the Nazis, Israel would have never come into existence.
So now as a result you not only import the same lingo from your previous enemy, but also use the same tactics physically. I wonder what that means to your own understanding of morality. In modern wording you are using the principle: "we got fucked by the Nazis and as a result we will fuck everyone around us like the Nazis did." What a blessing, holocaust all over again, this time in reverse. Hitler at least was true to himself and considered his warped view in the context of human race, a lofty but still physical concept. You base your fallacy on the principle of "god chosen people", an impossible concept to go with these days.
My prediction is such: Israel will cease to exist in the near future, not by incursions of bordering Arab states, and not by all means a victory of Palestine or any other outer circumvention. It will simply cease to exist because it has not enough power to sustain it's inbred principle of multiplication. In a few years, there will demographically living more Arabs in Israel than Jews.
Whatcha gonna do then, crybaby!? Call on god to save the chosen few? Good luck!
I don't happen to have the cell phone number for Moses, otherwise I would give it to you. Maybe you can Google it. He might have a new smart plan to get you onto a 40 year journey to find a new location. I heard it through the grapevines that he is good at that.
And here is for you stupid wannabe liberators in Palestine: Stop throwing firecrackers across the border to a country that has the 5th largest (maybe 4th) standing army in the world and additionally is 100% supported by the empire of the United States (who in it's ruling structure of politics and commerce is probably 70% Jewish).
How stupid is that, how ineffective, absurd and contra-productive. You only continue the chain of perpetual killing of your own people this way. Hey, if that's your agenda, no-one can help you if you are actually in for the final massacre of your future, and I will not blame Israel for that one.
Have you ever studied the principles of passive resistance? Ghandi was able to brake an empire that way.
Yes, as you can see I am still on the mind set that all the issues in the Middle East are strongly connected to the question of religions, or the remnants of such. You can prove me otherwise of course, and I will be honored to hear your rebuttal.
Rhiannon uttered: " ...Hit any Israeli target and you're bound to hit a soldier, which makes the attack automatically valid and puts all civilian casualties on the shoulders of the soldier, who chose to shield himself amongst them."
This is about the most stupid argument for killing people I have heard in a long time ...
Just because Israeli soldiers might be around it is then OK to kill civilians? That's sick!
You know you Anti-Israelis and you Israelis are all alike it seems, you polarize to a degree of fascism that slobbers my mouth like the foam of shaving cream I occasionally use to scratch a few hairs away.
In essence, you deserve each other, just like the clean cut needs an after-shave.
post 1:16 AM. Way too dramatic - analogies are pretty bad - not worth a comment.
==============
There are, even today, significant numbers of Jewish rabbis who are hotly anti-Zionist, but most Christians never hear their voices.
For example, Dr. Israel Shahak, emeritus professor of organic chemistry at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem until his death, had long been an advocate of human rights for Palestinian people.
He was the founder of the Israeli League of Human Rights. He wrote a letter published by the London Times on Jan. 27, 1973 entitled, “A Jewish Duty or Jewish Apostasy?”
“I am a Jew living in Israel, and consider myself a law-abiding citizen. I serve in the army every year, in spite of being nearly forty years old. But I am not ‘devoted’ to the State of Israel or to any other state or human organization.
I am devoted to my ideals. I believe in speaking the truth and in doing something for securing justice and equality for all human beings. . .
“But to be devoted to the State? I can well imagine Amos or Isaiah splitting their sides with laughter if somebody had demanded of them to be ‘devoted’ to the Kingdom of Israel or the Kingdom of Judah.
‘Hate evil and love good and establish judgment in the gate,’ says Amos (Chapter 5, verse 15), who does not spare a word of devotion to the great-warlike and successful Kingdom of Israel of his times.
“In fact, this new doctrine preached as a Jewish duty, is nothing but Jewish apostasy. All Jews used to believe and say it three times a day, that a Jew should be devoted to God, and God alone.
A small minority still believes it. But it seems to me that the majority of my people has left God, and has substituted an idol in its place, exactly as happened when they were so devoted to the Golden Calf in the desert that they gave away their gold to make it.
The name of this modern idol is the State of Israel.”
Bush will do whatever we want him to. He is like an obediant dog - he knows our power. He wants to please us and our great Israel! and he will. We are superior beings, you are dumb animals. All you people should be like Bush, then there would be no trouble.
You must recognize we Jews are above you! - you must understand God CHOSE us to rule over you. You are masses beneath us. We will and can use Bush and the US military to destroy the facilities and whatever should be done and to kill and injure many Persians and other low beings, or we will do it ourselves. We have powerful weapons of our own making because we are technologically advanced, scientifically superior, we have the best technicians and engineers in our state of Israel and our great New York, Boston, Los Angeles, Chicago, you name it!! we are above and beyond. Lover of HIttler you will go down. We will continue to exist forever. Just watch. We are not easily offended by the low likes of you.
and shahak was a nobody!!!
wow.. mirvat.. you have created a hub for racial vilification.. a sword of many faces.. google should be proud that it hosts such pearls of wisdom..
rhiannon and zee.. as we - being true natives of this region - say in ancient aramaic..
איסטרא בלגינא קיש קיש קריא
Istra Ba'lagina, Kish Kish Karya
a single coin in an empty barrel, makes a lot of noise
I wasn't really interested in commenting until it got really hilarious with Supreme and then with Zee..which I agree more with..
Each belief system is sooo funny,
If you're And You Believe Your god is
-------- --------------- -----------
Jew Chosen people Wold's racist
Christians Jesus is god and
died for our sins World's weakest
Muslims You will get 70+
Virgin in Heaven World's biggest
pimp
All the formats got screwed up, or god intentially screwed it up for me because I m exposing him...here it s again :) :), if it doesn't work..god wins
If you're Jews
And Believe you are the chosen people
Then your god is: Wold's racist
If you're Christians
And Believe Jesus is god and
died for our sins
Then your god is: Worlds Weakest
If you're Muslims
And BelieveYou will get 70+
Virgin in Heaven
Then your god is: World's biggest pimp
I like the way you handle this situation Mone
Rhiannon you commented that you support killings and then when called upon it you don't care to answer?!
Instead you bring some boring stuff of professors who said this or that. I don't give a shit what some kind of professor said here or there. What I do though care about is how YOU will explain and manifest your position.
lirun, i don't necessarily agree with most of the comments here but i don't like to moderate and this is why your comments always remained even when, in some cases, they were directed against me personally. i obviously am disgusted with supreme's comments but i choose to leave them here. we're all adults and we know that the world has the good and bad and very very ugly on all sides and in all religions and there's no point in looking the other way.
this post was not in any way about israel in the first place but the comment section went in that direction. oh well..
rhiannone, i have to agree with zee's criticism. i'm completely against your argument and it goes along the same logic of the israelis during the war in lebanon. i know you try to be cynical and to go to the extreme to show them how faulty their logic is, at least i hope that's what you're trying to do otherwise you're not being any better!
Hey Mone, that was very good.
=========
Mirvat, what Germany did to the Jews, the "jews" are doing to Muslims and Christians in the M.E. I am showing two sides that are almost the same.
With 'israel' I find it to be much worse. I don't support killing, Mirvat. Mone, you should know this, too. And yes, Mirvat I do show the faulty 'logic' of the zionist bent. That is all I do. That is all I will ever do. Yes, I may be cynical, but I don't think my posts are extreme.
If the little dainties reading my posts can't handle it - tough. Yeah, that's you post 7:36 PM, and again, you are too hysterical and you are not worth responding to. At least golda supreme meir has a cool tone compared to your ridiculous: "that slobbers my mouth like the foam of shaving cream......." - and all those other idiotic animations even a kid wouldn't use - and your sniveling little potty mouth leaves much to be desired - I swore I saw Ghandi WINCING.
===========
Mirvat, I have posted the same thing, actually. So now I chose words differently. Read my posts again. You will see that what I have said (on other blogs, most assuredly) is that 'israel' has itself to blame for deaths in its own 'borders'.
Look how lirun, snurd, and the rest of them play games with the borders issue.
Look what snurd says: "Interesting how the topic of Gemayel's assasination quickly becomes a Palestinian issue after a couple of "Jews" write in a response. Talk about denial..."
More games. We know the connections of Iraq, Palestine, and Lebanon are NOOSED together quite tightly and they are HANGING from the death rope that is this concept of 'israel'.
The israelis/zion supporters love to play games with the history of 1947 partition. They even have people believing there was never such thing as Palestine or Palestinians. They've written the books and they still are, today. Some israelis or zion supporters go as far as to call palestinians neanderthals of that time.
Everything that I posted is actually based on fact and fact based on history.
It is a sick twisted joke how the lies of the USA media - aka zionists - have brainwashed the world that Hamas and/or other adults use their children, women, and elderly as shields.
And while quite a lot of people despise 'israel' would you believe? Many of these same people think of Arabs - especially Palestinians as dirt for using their innocents for shields.
But we know the truth. American people don't realize that Arab children die in their sleep from bombs or sickness. Or in daily life they die from bombs, shotguns, and sickness. - All courtesy of 'israel'.
'israel' in reality IS a military base.
From my post:
Every Israeli adult between 18 and 50, save for a tiny ultra-orthodox minority and the downpressed Israeli Arabs, **is an active duty or reserve soldier or member of one of Israel's "intelligence" services. Soldiers and agents are valid military targets in any conflict.**
======
Look at the settlers, how vicious they are. Murdering without penalty. Look at the state itself. Training for war, and its only decent trade (with much help from the USA) which is weaponry -for 6 decades.
How do *I* support killing when I say this, Mirvat?:
"Hit any Israeli target and you're bound to hit a soldier, which makes the attack automatically valid and puts all civilian casualties on the shoulders of the soldier, who chose to shield himself amongst them."
It is a notable ANALOGY as they blame Hamas and Hezbollah for this very same crap, but most factual, in 'israel's case. It is 'israel' that uses its citizens as human shields - most especially the arab israelis. It is 'israel' that has created animosity within itself and the surrounding neighbours. 'israel' is to blame for its own casualties.
It is 'ISRAEL' THAT SUPPORTS KILLING more that its neighbours actually do when you add all the checks and balances from history to present time - which is what the post WAS ONLY ABOUT.
This country with NO BORDERS started these bloody invasions, created the hatred between neighbours, continually changing diplomatic and government rules to suit their needs while efficiently causing more misery for Arab landowners and business owners.
So they "freed" Gaza, as they have the world believing. But what the world doesn't know is that Gaza is a slow-raging HOLOCAUST created by 'israel'.
READ MY POSTS AGAIN.
They aren't anything new under the sun. Only to the blinded N.A. and Great Britain - and how very heartbreaking.
your comments rhiannon and factually groundless and they are not even fit for publishing in any forum.. whats more they are illegal messages in many jurisdictions..
mirvat.. i would be concerned if i were you.. any enlightened individual knows that freedom of speech ends where someone else's freedom begins.. after all its a freedom not a right.. and as such is subject to limitations..
mirvat.. please consider that notwithstanding your views on the importance of portraying even the extremely ugly aspects of the world in an authentic manner - ideology is not a shield against the law..
racial vilification is an offence in many places.. by tacitly approving the validity of rhiannons ridiculous commentary you could support an argument that you are facilitating their proliferation..
and at a factual note.. i remind you that we have had busload after busload of school children bombed.. we have had school children parties directly targeted and bombed.. women over 24 or so dont serve in the IDF and not all men stick through reserves through to retirement.. large chunks of religious/arab/pacifist israel dont serve at all.. it is blatantly wrong and ignorant to assume that every israeli is a soldier.. and peverted to argue that because we have large defence forces that random killing is legitimate or for that matter that israelis are akin to nazis..
i have already discussed the issue of legality.. and if rhiannon wasnt so gutless as to hide behind a pseudonym i would have pressed charges directly against her ages ago.. she desecrates the canadian values regularly let alone violates law..
please, no one should feel so threatened by a god's chosen people that he/she refrains from exercising their RIGHT to free speech.
Death in the ME is a very subjective matter. Death is more important when the perpetrators are Israelis. Compare the outcry over Beit Hanoun to that of the Sunni/Shiite bombings in Iraq. Apparently, 19 people in Beit Hanoun sparked more outcry than the tens of thousands killed in Iraq (by Muslims, not Americans). The Arab media goes even as far as to say that the Muslim-on-Muslim violence is America's fault as if to say "America made us do it."
When America saves Muslims from genocide like in Kosovo (ignoring Rwaanda), they get a lukewarm response at best in the Arab world.
So it really is an anti-Muslim hatred because Muslim-on-Muslim violence is tolerated, even expected. Hatred towards America and Israel has absolutely nothing to do with policy. It is just an excuse because when you are NOT Muslim the casualities you cause are magnified a million-fold and exploited in the Arab media at the expense of Muslim-on-Muslim violence.
from 7:36 to 11:32 (or was it the other way around ...?)
________________________________________
Thank you for your elaborate comment, it made my day!
A bus load of children bombed? Oh you poor baby!
That was 'israel's' fault, as 'israel' creates this mess of hatred and racism with its neighbours.
You liren, are an illegal entity living on stolen illegal land. You and your little friends snurd and supreme should have done jail time fit for ten lifetimes for the crimes you have supported and/or committed against Arab children, their mothers and the elderly.
You have quite the gutless nerve to groan about how we try to tell the world of our dead and why they are dying, accusing us of modeling our dead on a catwalk.
When reality bites, only the zionist speaks through ITS ass, as IT hunts and forages for more despicable lies to undo the damage to ITS so-called 'chosen people' image.
Why should we listen to your sham of what you
consider 'groundless', 'not worth publishing', and 'illegal'?
I told you before and I will tell you again: If you feel offended by pictures of dead Arab children on the blogs then I make this suggestion to you:
Contact Elie Wiesal and Simon Weisenthal. Tell them how sick you think it is that they keep churning out books and building more musuems to showcase the holocaust dead. Tell them that you don't want your long dead ancestors on a CATWALK anymore in full view of the paying American public, as you find it distasteful and lacking in class. Furthermore, tell them how you find it grotesque that their holocaust industry rakes in multiple millions annually from this "beating the dead horse" of a decrepit issue.
Busload after busload of children bombed? Such an exaggeration, as more words spill from the ass.
Let us do the math, then.
For every one child in 'israel' that is killed by a suicide bomber, 100 palestinian children are murdered by IOF/israeli settlers. This does not include deaths by malnutrition and disease reaped on the Palestinian children done BY 'ISRAEL'.
This does not include the murders of the adults, the Lebanese, or Iraq.
Consider the hotbed of hate and violence 'israel' has created. When you do, everything falls into place.
Inventions of the Neocon fable-making hate machine:
Islamist
Jihadist
Suicide bomber
All Muslims and Arabs are terrorists
Collateral damage
judeochristian
The building of the 3rd temple
jewishatheism
christian zionism
Jesus is a Jew
antisemitism
holocaust denier
self-hating jew
and so much more........
When one is not getting paid from the zionist outfit to support and protect their bastard creations that serve to quicken their deeper/hidden agendas....it is enough to make ones head explode just to keep track of all the manipulations, distortions, and deception.
Don't worry liren. I have my head on straight. I see right through you.
"large chunks of religious/arab/pacifist israel dont serve at all.." I already said that in my post but the 'large chunks' bit is over done.
"it is blatantly wrong and ignorant to assume that every israeli is a soldier.. and peverted to argue that because we have large defence forces that random killing is legitimate or for that matter that israelis are akin to nazis.."
Not wrong at all. You keep failing to look at your history - the murders and massacres and the reasons why 'israel' commits these acts - and if your country has nothing to hide, why does it continually injure, threaten, shoot at, imprison, and KILL newspaper journalists and peace activists trying to help/cover the news in Gaza and the West Bank?
You're right. You're WORSE than the nazis, much worse. At least you had allies come to your rescue. You have the Arab nations divided and weak and the world hating/misunderstanding us.
===============
Historically speaking, the Palestinians did not begin their resistance to the occupation with suicide bombings. These came at least 25 years later when the political and security situation deteriorated considerably; and when it became certain that the world was just going to stand by and let the Zionist powers reign.
There were no suicide bombings before the Oslo Peace Process.
The quote of the decade: "You liren, are an illegal entity "
by the way, you forgot that we are responsible for darfur too
sorry rhiannone but i had to delete one of your comments.
Lirun, your threats or comments are no longer welcome on this blog. you will be deleted from now on.
Wow, this, like all posting that have anything remotely linked to the M.E. runs a tangent of inexcusable hatred.
The case for or against any entity can never be truly argued in a blog of commentators who don't know themselves, the ideology they defend or admit the façade they hide behind. I do find many of the previous comments entertaining. It is clear to see who is who.
This world is full of people who say they are against killing and smile at you while killing your brother.
Most racists will show their true identity when pressed. Enter logic and historical facts and the point of hatred is revealed. I’m sick of those who claim to sympathize with your struggle but wear a hooded sheet on the weekend.
Quite simply my belief about Lebanon (wasn’t that the original post topic?) is that it can and will survive, if only left alone. But that’s easier said than done, everything is a counter move to previous agendas. Like so many defenseless countries other powers use it as if it were a chess board (more like checkers in time of war).
If you really care about Palestinians, Lebanese, Iraqis and so on, then you would not only demand positive and progressive change but you would work tirelessly for it, the mission is to defend human beings and not your view. Nothing can be proven to those who believe the converse. The nature of things is volatile; peace requires an altered state of being.
It never seizes to amaze me how people who claim to be of a certain religious belief can’t even follow the core of what their cannon dictates. I think before spewing out hateful venom at those you claim to support or even consider friends re-read your book. There is only one God, we each just choose a different name and pick which message of his to hear and which to ignore.
That's okay, Mirvat.
=========
andrey, about Darfur, this is actually, in part, true. From the 60s 'israel' has been selling arms to Darfur and continue to do so today.
Charlie Jacobs is key. His so-called intentions are quite ugly concerning Darfur.
And I would like to know, why the top zionist organizations are financially feeding Darfur's military which is killing its own innocents.
But I'll give a few hints:
***Oil-rich Sudan
***Future USA Military posts strategically placed
***Shades of Palestine and Iraq
Mind elaborating on your comment, mohammad?:
"This world is full of people who say they are against killing and smile at you while killing your brother."
If you are talking about 'israel', then I agree with you. Many times peace talks with 'israel' have fell apart because IT wants too much and offered way little in return to the Arabs. But you don't see this in the N.A. papers. The zionist newspapers lie and claim it is the Arabs who are unreasonable. And so the American public believe these lies.
[mohammad] "Most racists will show their true identity when pressed."
Not really, mohammad. It is obvious that snurd, andrey, supreme, and leren are racists. They need not pressing.
[mohammad] "Enter logic and historical facts and the point of hatred is revealed. I’m sick of those who claim to sympathize with your struggle but wear a hooded sheet on the weekend."
Oh I agree. larun and snurd do this time and time again with their so-called claim of sympathy of the Arab holocaust created by 'israel' and USA-Britain policies. They come on more like condescending and boastful than they ever care to admit. And that is a good KKK analogy as many times the 'jewish' settlers have tried their hand at lynching Palestinian children they kidnapped from the territories - some were not successful because the IOF intervened - amazing.
As for logical facts and historical events, there are a slew of these to use against 'israel'- ITS murderous history is legion.
[mohammad] "Quite simply my belief about Lebanon (wasn’t that the original post topic?) is that it can and will survive, if only left alone. Like so many defenseless countries other powers use it as if it were a chess board (more like checkers in time of war)."
The topic of Lebanon was never deviated from - So I don't understand what you mean.
Read the great article that kk posted from IFC - it is quite good and has everything to do with Lebanon.
Here mohamad, I'll give you the link kk gave earlier:
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article15725.htm
And I happen to agree with this article, mohamad. As for the powers behind the real manipulating - it says so in the article but I will tell you, as I'm sure you already know: Only 'israel' and USA gain from the assassinations in Lebanon. Whether it is to quicken their agenda for a further weakened Lebanon or to cover up their deeds by getting rid of the witnesses and/or main players in their sordid game. But I'm sure you already know this, as you already said this - you just forgot to put the names on the players.
Sorry, mohamad, I meant information clearing house as in ICH. Posted by kk.
:-)
[mohamad] "If you really care about Palestinians, Lebanese, Iraqis and so on......" .....Well who on this blog doesn't? Unless you're speaking of lerin, snurd, supreme and others like themselves.
[mohamad] " then you would not only demand positive and progressive change but you would work tirelessly for it, the mission is to defend human beings and not your view. Nothing can be proven to those who believe the converse."
Well, mohamad, the WORD is mightier than the BULLET, in case you haven't noticed all these years. Just read the many newspapers and books in the USA and you will see how the Arab world is fighting an upward battle of words with the bullets and bombs following close by. Guess who the biggest casualties are? The children.
Did I really have to tell you this?
BTW, I certainly am not so stupid as to try to prove anything to or try to turn the heads of the israeli zionists. But I refuse to let them misinform other people who are not well-read on M.E issues who happen to be reading the blogs.
Rhiannon, don't get too riled at the comments of others. They are just playing out their roles.
and you are playing yours.
Take no offense, I agree with you and your duty to propagate truth in the face of a new blitz.
hmm...interesting... Lirun coming back as this ibrahim issa thing??
Why are you so polarizing RHIANNON?
Relax, take a break, breathe out ... take your medication, whatever.
There is no beast without a victim, and both play the same role of importance to overcome pain and neglect, murder and resurrection.
Societies nowadays can't be ruled by the dogmas of old.
"...There is only one God, we each just choose a different name and pick which message of his to hear and which to ignore."
I thought this to be a wonderful thought in context posted by Ibrahim.
I can again slobber it onto you (as shaving cream) again what I don't like about:
Israel
Arab attitudes of some entities
The US
What you don't get into your pigeon brain, is that we are all peoples and deserve better than being ruled as a society by religious old fashioned principles, or corrupt politicians submerged in the swamp of a capitalistic nightmare that destroys nations and nature.
Librium is a good drug,
Cheers, Zee.
rhiannon, i completely agree with you. words should be stronger than bullets and we are facing a war of PR and image where we have to regain some of the world's tolerance and understanding. like rhiannon said, most of the time we don't even try to convince people who are very set on their views and opinions based on where they come from or their bias but we try to project a fair evaluation of the situation by switching the balance from the extreme anti-arab (which is where the world opinion is) to somewhere in the middle by clarifying some misunderstandings. that, as opposed to what we have been accused of on this blog, is not a propagation of hate as much as it is self defense since we're already at the position of attack even during the war in july.
mohammad, if we don't use words who will? Of course we care for peace and we care for the lebanese, the iraqis and the palestinians.. we do what we can to convey the message that these people don't deserve to die and to remind people of what's happening. even when this is all we can do, i think it's better than nothing.
i attack israel and i will and i won't or my visitors be intimidated by any threats from lirun or others. it's shameful when lirun gets offended by rhiannon's comments but shows no reaction to supreme's comments and that shows me exactly why rhiannon goes to the offense in his opinions.. i agree that when you're the one being attacked, when you're the one in the weak position and when you're right.. you should never be cornered in the defensive position and that's what the israeli politicians seemed to do during the july war.
so rhiannon i apologize again for letting lirun's threat to you get to me. i also don't encourage comments that support violence in any way and so i hope you all calm down on the threats because i hate to moderate.
An other thing RHIANNON, your choice of music:
Carly Simon
Fleetwood Mac
Tom Petty
Billy Joel
Elton
Guns N Roses(ORIGINAL MEMBERS!)
Todd Rundgren
Aerosmith
Steely Dan
Chicago
Beatles
Cheap Trick
Mamas & Papas
Nirvana
Soundgarden
Alice in Chains
BTO
Heart
Earth Wind & Fire
.... all that stuff above, I might listen to as well occasionally, but YOU? Come on, all the record companies who you put out as favorite music posted on your profile are being run by Jews, if not Zionists.
What the heck, where is your big mouth now?
I find it hypocritical.
You want the western winds and then the mid-eastern calm. Good luck baby.
This is my last comment to you,
yours, babyshavingcream.
[mohamad] "It never seizes to amaze me how people who claim to be of a certain religious belief can’t even follow the core of what their cannon dictates."
1. Well you need to talk to the zionists who call themselve "jews", as they are the ones who created the whole smorgasbord of scripture-tainting to dupe the American public.
2. Then you must dialogue with the deluded 'christian'zionists who are most hateful in their words and deeds when it comes to the Second Coming of Christ and the building of Third Temple....not to mention the barbaric murder of Arab children they most gleefully support.
[mohamad "I think before spewing out hateful venom at those you claim to support or even consider friends re-read your book."
That is right! Take note liren and snurd. Do you have your Torahs open?
Allow me:
Christian Zionists assume that the United States will prosper only if it supports all the policies of the Israeli government. Christian Zionists base this on God’s words to Abraham, “I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse” (Gn. 12:3).
However, when Israel strayed from righteousness... God who loved Israel became angry and withheld himself from Israel.
In Isaiah God says, “…Ah, sinful nation, people laden with iniquity, offspring who do evil…who have forsaken the Lord...
When you stretch out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you, even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.” (Is. 1:4-15).
To restore themselves to his grace, God says the Israelites should “…seek justice, rescue the oppressed…” (Is. 1:17)
At a different time, speaking through Malachi, God says.....
“Then I will draw near to you for judgment, I will be swift to bear witness against…those who oppress the…widow and the orphan, against those who thrust aside the alien...” (Mal. 3:5).
To love and bless Israel means to hold Israel accountable, as did God, to the teachings of justice and peace by the prophets.
There are twenty-one passages in the Old Testament that specifically give rights to aliens, Palestinians in the case of current Israel.
Speaking thru the prophet Jeremiah, God said, “If you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not go after other gods to your own hurt, then I will dwell with you in this place…” (Jer. 7:6-7).
And “The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God” (Lev. 19:33-34).
Very inspirational Rhiannon, i love when people quote a holy book.
BTW this is not Lirun. Although it would be highly intrigueing to be him for a day.
Mirvat, love your blog, your style, passion and diverse readership.
You are right about combating the PR machine. There can't be one force without it's equal and opposite action, if there was, the energy that force will build will eliminate us.
"Then the Lord your God will bring you back from your captivity and have mercy upon you, and He will return and gather you in from all the peoples to which the Lord your God has scattered you. If your dispersed will be at the ends of the earth the Lord your God will gather and fetch you. The Lord your God will bring you to the land which your forefathers possessed and you shall possess it.
Deuteronomy 30:3-5
thanks mohammad :)
snurd please save us! as far as i am concerned, if a god did exist, he/she would love all his/her children equally and won't give one people the right to kill others in the name of supremacy.
"Rhiannon, don't get too riled at the comments of others. They are just playing out their roles."
I'm trying to figure out why bringing the truth and showing light on reality is to you 'getting all riled up'.
I do not muddy up the issues of the facts and truth, which snurd enjoys doing with the Deutronomy post - and just one example of all his posts derived from the House of Cards that is Zionism. Notice how the scripture is only in one part of three?
See the game? A lie by omission.
Any Christian, Jew, or Muslim, worth their weight of knowledge in scripture knows that the Hebrews were to have Israel on conditions.
Conditions meaning:
Their hearts were not to be hardened.
They were not to sin
They were to obey God and his messengers
To follow the covenant as God created and they would live in peace and dwell in Israel forever with want for nothing, as God would take care of them.
Have you seen any of this happen in current times with people living in 'israel'? Did they obey God in biblical times?
No.
Kind of strange and spooky for snurdz to be preaching from the Torah when all he really wants is to live on a compound,have a bunch of girlfriends of many different races and make 50 babies.
All snurd really wants to be is another Charlie Manson.
After all, snurd is just one of those jewishatheists - aka - zionists. Devoid of any belief in God, the prophets or understanding of scripture. Who is snurd to post from scripture? And why is it so incomplete?
Kind of funny, eh, Mohammad?
Carly Simon is supposedly half-jewish and her father was the one half team of the Zionist Simon and Schuster pubulishing company in New York City.
I know the world I live in and I am aware of the entertainment industry and who the zionists are that run it.
The fact that I like the music is quite irrelevant to the issues of the Middle East - you are desperately clutching at straws, and your point is completely lost or just plain useless.
Furthermore, you really need to understand what the word hypocrite means.
Obviously, you haven't a clue.
That is your last post to me?
Wow. I'm all broken up.
[and now for something not so incredible from the not so incredible files of 3:PM] "we are all peoples and deserve better than being ruled as a society by religious old fashioned principles, or corrupt politicians submerged in the swamp of a capitalistic nightmare that destroys nations and nature."
Corrupt politicians?
Capitalistic nightmares?
Gee golly whiz, I didn't know! Thanks for the info for I couldn't have even imagined!
As for God:
It is not the singer it is the SONG.
It doesn't MATTER that you don't believe in God, for God is not dependent on your belief to exist. Just like the planets revolving around the Sun or your heart beating 103,680 times a day - it doesn't matter that you are not aware - they happen as they do exist without your concern or care.
You are here on this earth to make choices. God didn't do anything to you. You did it to yourself.
The SCRIPTURES inspired by God through the prophets are a benefit to us to bring to our families, friends and neighbours so as to bring as much peace, understanding, and benevolence to each other, and therefore to the world - like a ripple effect.
So there are idiots who twist the scriptures for their own means. So why don't you throw the child out with the bath water,then, right?
You're wrong. We are not governed by "old-fashioned religious rules and principles", as you think.
Far from it.
You think Bush, Robertson, Falwell, the late Rabbi schneerson are a credit to the faith they claim to belong?
They are evil, pure and simple.
That goes for 'muslims' who do the same. You can fast 60 days and go to Mecca 10 times, but God is not stupid. Good, decent people are not stupid. Steal, lie, deceive, and hurt people - All the fasting and praying mean nothing to a dark soul and will not lighten it.
And snurd, leren, and supreme, we are soooooo not stupid.
God is not dependent on your belief to exist, are you sure?
you think we depend on god for our existence and our beliefs? absolutely not..
He depends on us for HIS existence.
Without us, humans, and other creation of His, how would he exist? alone? To whom would he give orders and show off, to himself? that will be pretty boring wouldn't it?
Good question Andrey ...
I agree. Good question. And I hope Mirvat doesn't mind that the topic of Lebanon veered off topic just a little. Please bear with me and I hope, Mirvat that you do not see me as preaching. Never would I do such a thing.
=============
Imagine this. God comes down to Earth for one minute - one blessed 60-second moment - and announces to the world the solution to all of its problems and the way for every soul to experience heaven-on-earth and eternal salvation. God reveals this solution and this way with one sentence. What do you suppose that sentence would be?
You: "Believe in Me"?
God: No.
You: "Believe in My Son"?
God: No.
You: "Love everyone"?
God: No.
You: "Stop the killing"?
God: No.
You: Okay then, what? Whaaat?
God: Here it is. Are you ready?
"Tell the truth."
============
Those words and that dialogue are not mine. I copied them from Weblog of Neale Donald Walsch
From Neale Donald Walsch:
That's it. That's all
there is to it.
Just tell the truth,
and everything is solved.
Not overnight.
Not in the next instant.
But fast. Very fast.
Because very soon after
everyone starts telling
the truth, the cause
of the problems goes away.
We live in a society
based on secrecy.
Think about it.
Virtually every aspect
of life as we have
constructed it is
based on secrecy.
The cultural myth is
that what we don't know
makes everything work,
not what we do know.
If governments around
the world (our's included)
ever told the people
everything that
government knows
on every subject,
governments would
have to change.
If governments ever
gave people
the real reasons
behind everything
governments do,
what governments do
would be altered forever.
Wars, for instance,
would practically
vanish from the
human experience,
because most
human beings would
never agree to go
to war for the
real reasons
governments declare war.
Governments know this,
so governments give us
trumped up reasons,
reasons they hope
most of the people
will agree with.
Taxes would also
virtually vanish,
because most human beings
would never agree
to be taxed
for the real reasons
governments raise money.
Governments know this,
so governments give us
trumped up reasons,
reasons they hope most of the people will agree with.
Neale Donald Walsch
======
There is a movie based on his true story called CONVERSATION'S WITH GOD
rhiannon please this is your forum too.
Rhiannon, don't get snappy at me again right away, it gets tired ... however, you might like to check out my post:
http://sunburstgem.blogspot.com/2006/12/grey-friday.html#links
It is about the hardship Lebanon is facing on this grey Friday.
It would interest me to know what you think, following the paths of courage in your turbulent mind. The demo of HZ in Beirut is moving on as we speak (or as I type...). It is significant to the future of Lebanon, no matter where you stand, or what the final outcome will be ...
rhiannon, do you have a blog? each of these rants could be a separate post.
God does not need us to exist. god was here before us, therefore, if he needed us to exist, how could he be before us? That is if you beleive in God. If you don't then none of this matters.
The demos in Lebanon are interesting. There is no split in Lebanon, the split is conjured from outside, the public all want the same thing. But when you introduce mass-murderers on to the scene and let them orate their opposition then the hidden agendas will gain a foothold and take over. Izrael is loving every moment, they are at this point using some of our "leaders" to come in through the back door.
BTW the people who recieved a prophet's messages went against that prophet, conspired till his demise and took the faith on a different path. The key is for each of us to search the original message and use it as a guide, no matter the structure provided.
Really an interesting dialogue of people not listening to one another past the point they like. If wish i knew some of guys. some don't list their sites or blogs and others pretend to be someone else. I enjoyed reading this and have many comments that I'll spare you from. I'll keep checking for more of this delirious repartee.
[zee] "For the Lebanese people to solely blame Israel in this situation would be a fatal error in my eyes....."
It would have been IDEAL, if Rafik Hariri had been a humble man building Lebanon in a different way than he had. Truly, he would have been a thorn in 'israel's' side much more than he actually ever was.
What a shame that so many Arab leaders have screwed up their platforms of power to only take advantage of their people instead of helping them. We have that against us, for sure. Therefore, they were never a credit to their faith and faith is a non-issue.
But in no way can 'israel' ever be left out of the Lebanon situation, as the israelis have been trying to convince us to do.
Lebanon will never solve any of their problems until the Palestine situation is solved. THEY ARE CONNECTED AND THEY ALWAYS WILL BE, AS IRAQ IS CONNECTED.
For the record:
In WW2, the Germans did not have the internet or a free press so the bulk of their population did not know about what was happening. Every city 200, 000 or larger was leveled by allied bombers at the point in the war when Germany had started their programs.
Meanwhile, today and since it’s inception, “Israel” is very well fed and is under no imminent threat. They have nuclear weapons to destroy any potential enemy. The Arabs are not 'allowed' to even think about obtaining these weapons just to balance the playing field.
The biggest factor is that if the Zionists are sincere about ww2 then they should be the last ones doing the same to others.
The laws that ‘israel’ enacts are similar to the marriage laws of nazi germany and the living arrangements they set up for the Arabs are worse than South Africa under the apartheid regime.
“israel’ has crammed the Arabs - into what the jews called a ghetto in Europe - in present day Gaza - the highest population density in the world.
If self-preservation was “israel’s” intended aim they would not continue to defy 1/6 of the world's population by unjustly taking land away from defenseless civilians at every opportunity.
If ‘israel’s’ intended aim is to steal Land then it makes sense; It cannot allow a peace process to succeed because it is much easier to abuse and steal from people without a country.
Therefore, that is your clue. 'israel'.
The 'israelis would have you believe that Saudi Arabia
is so rich and powerful with
its oil trade, and that poor little
'israel' has no such oil trade.
This is misleading because it implies Arabs are one
united nation with focused goals. In reality, most of
that money goes to corrupt governments
and much of it ends up back in the west.
And the Arabs are not united. And 'israel'- USA like it that way.
Saudi Arabia is not likely to
give up its oil trade with the
USA anytime soon if ever.
Therefore, the UAE-Saudi Arabia will not likely
come to Lebanon's aid when
'israel' commits another invasion.
And so it goes with Arab nations not helping Iraq or Palestine.
And woe to anyone if they do, hence, Syria and Iran.
I'm rather tired of the ongoing condemnation of Hezbollah. Simply, they are freedom fighters not terrorists.
Case in point:
Nasrallah's son, Hadi, fought with his fellow soldiers and died on those Southern mountains of Lebanon. The israeli ghouls took his body back for price. Hadi Nasrallah fought bravely and died for his Lebanon - only 17 or 18 years old.
Why doesn't bush's daughters go to Iraq? Instead of cruising the clubs and getting sloshed every now and then, the least they could do is support and fight along their fellow countrymen-women.
When his daughters come back in 2009 or 2010, after the iraqi holocaust, they can suffer like the rest of the soldiers from PTSD and TBI.
Lebanon needed teeth and Lebanon will still need teeth. I don't have to tell you the favourite bedtime story of Shatila and Sabra do I?
How 'israel' built a wall of tanks around the Palestinian camps in Lebanon so the people couldn't escape their near future slaughter?
How the Phalangists went in and knifed and butchered as many men, women and children before the gunfire, so they could get ahead of their numbers killing without alarming other people in other camps?
How the women and children finally tried to escape the camps but the israeli "soldiers" - goons really - pushed them back towards the camps to meet their fate?
How the israeli goons and phalangists tried to bury as many bodies under uprooted-damaged homes as possible so the RedCross could not do a decent number count of the dead?
How 3,500 to 4,000 men, women, and children were butchered, shot and raped in a span of 4 to 5 days?
Hezbollah was born from that event, and possibly earlier. Don't forget the June 1982 bombing by 'israel' that killed approx. 20,000 Lebanese that summer.
The PLO were tricked to leave the camps on the promise of Reagan (did Reagan have a clue?) that their families would be safe.
A zionist "promise" good to its "word".
hariri helped to get the body of hadi back.. since we're on hariri!
how did he do that anyway?!!
Rhiannon thanks for not calling me a number for a change!
Your Zionist rant aside - that sometimes can get a bit tiresome on my ears - I mostly agree with many things you say.
As an outsider, who is neither slanted towards Israel nor Arab states, I must say something about Lebanon.
I think that I have come to the conclusion that the difference (you mentioned the interconnection) between Lebanon and Palestine is this:
Lebanon can hopefully still help themselves, Palestine can not.
If Lebanon frees itself in its struggle, it might become an inspiration to the larger region, and also to Palestine to overcome their own chaos.
Thus is why I emphasized that hopefully the knot will be finally entangled interiorly and not again be shoved off to an external entity to be blamed to.
Yes, yes, yes ... you are going to hack on me right away again how influential, bad and vicious Israel and her US brethren is! But why don't you stop your whining for a moment, put that aside and think about what REALY can be done, despite the obstacles. Change can only come from within, not from the periphery.
It is useless to fight "the empire" out of weakness - but it has virtue to regain strength through inner mobilization.
If "peace" is of any interest to any parties in the middle east, I believe Israel should be shunned by Arabs and in this way put on the spot.
But no, the dumb knuckle-heads in Lebanon and Palestine share the view that sending firecrackers to Israel is giving them some kind of advantage. How stupid is that? It's not going anywhere unless you are supporting acceleration of building the wall, the fucking obscene wall Israel is building.
Your only chance to successful self-determination is sticking "to your guns" and resist to fire them.
Anything else is suicide.
I see that you and mohammad call my stuff "rants".
And I find the word "rant" over-used in itself. I see it so often that I never use it - for THAT is quite weary on MY eyes.
I am not "ranting". Most of the time I am laughing or quite calm when I post.
What I say is factual and has as much truth as I can garner from what I've learned, read, and from conversations with others.
If you don't like the zionist "rant", as you say it's tiring, all I can say to you is - I'm not changing it. It stays, so be prepared to be very very tired.
Whining? Now you go too far. If anything, I am blunt, sharp, and too the point. Everynow and then I like to dedicate an ode.
None of these things are "whining".
Perhaps you have taken too much Librium and my words are swimming before your eyes and you can-not - grasp - their - mean - ing.
[zee] "If Lebanon frees itself in its struggle....."
Let us say that Lebanon has no inner struggles to get over. Let us say that She is doing well economically and gaining in trade and prosperity.
That only means - to me - that 'israel' is a changed country, and not like we know it now or have known it all these years.
Okay let's say 'israel' didn't change and Lebanon is still soaring. Well not for long, then. Not if 'israel' has anything to say about it.
You must realize that summer 2006 was to be Lebanon's best year, economically, to date. Lebanon's touring season was increasing greatly.
The inner struggles and hardships going on within Lebanon - (that were caused by past invasions of 'israel', anyway) - DID NOT CAUSE THE BLOODY AND ILLEGAL INVASION OF LEBANON DONE BY 'ISRAEL'.
She didn't do it to herself. A most false accusation!
'israel' caused this atrocious mess with greenlights and blessings from Britain and USA.
But I will say, that if Lebanon had not had the struggles and hardships, perhaps She could have built up a by far more superior army to protect herself from the ever invading 'israel'. Maybe 700+ children and babies wouldn't have died, only 300.
Small comfort. And we still have 'israel's greatest gift of all to Lebanon - over 1 million cluster bombs to maim and kill - a reality today and ongoing.
Lebanon with a strong army is a moot point, anyway. 'israel' has the 3rd or 4rth most powerful military in the world. And you, zee, can thank your sweet taxdollars for that, because contrary to what the israelis would have you believe, THEY CANNOT SURVIVE without your taxdollars.
So it is useless for you to say that Palestine and Lebanon create their own mess. On a small scale, but not on the big scale.
You're wrong. Clearly wrong, when you speak of Lebanon and Palestine. THESE COUNTRIES ARE NOT COMITTING THE ILLEGAL INVASIONS, MASSACRES, AN IMPRISONEMENTS OF A PEOPLE OF A FOREIGN COUNTRY - ALL AGAINST INTERNATIONAL LAW. ONLY 'ISRAEL' DOES THIS.
Save your words for 'israel'!
See how much better this sounds for then I would agree:
"Thus is why I emphasized that hopefully the ISRAEL knot will be finally untangled interiorly and not shove again its murderous and fabricated excuses on Palestine and Lebanon."
[zee] "Change can only come from within, not from the periphery."
Good words, great words, but they do NOT apply to Lebanon and Palestine. Certainly not entirely. Try 'israel'. Are your ears getting tired? I don't care. Those words you say above are to be directed at 'israel' - totally. I happen to believe that peace starts with 'israel', as there are some decent people living there who know this. Their numbers have to grow.
And this Ghandi thing you got going? It doesn't apply to Lebanon nor Palestine. It's not the same thing at all.
rhiannon, are you palestinian?
zee rhiannon is right. you're very mistaken if you would think that lebanon or palestine brought these problems on themselves because of some chaos that we have internally.
we didn't have this chaos before this summer war. we had different parties and disagreements to the extent of any democratic country.
the politics in lebanon are affected by the region since lebanon is a small country with no significant army and that obviously cannot protect itself from its neighbors and that's why it's affected by its neighbors. so we were not in chaos and we prospered and were a stable country until this past war! they said they want lebanon 20 years back and they achieved it.. we are an inspiration because we stand up on our feet after every blow and every war but who wants to be inspired.
palestine is different yes. the difference is bluntly..
we are still a country. in a way or another israel cannot just ethnically cleanse lebanon all together. right now cleaning our act and getting rid of the 'internal chaos' that you talk about or in bush's words being an example for 'democracy' in the ME is why we're given a break before the next possible israeli invasion.
problem is cleaning our act as israel demands it is to get rid of any kind of opposition to our mighty neighbor, forget about the palestinians, and assign a pro-american, abbas-like government that would reflect the sunni and the american wishes in the region. that wouldn't work for the other half of lebanese who are being bombed in the south and for the palestinians who we choose not to leave behind.
lebanon is different from palestine just because they find it more difficult to cover in front of the international community if they bombed all of lebanon but palestine they can since no one cares. and since people still look well lebanon suffers we are willing to defend the palestinians as well.
the little country that could just simply can't prosper.. the american university of beirut doesn't get decent funding for grants unless it makes peace with israel and that's only one example.
it's only the nature of our country that it immediately reflects the regional conflicts. i think the world falls within 2 camps lately and this is well represented in lebanon. the american influence and the PR machine is giving a legitimate power for one party over another but that doesn't mean we live in chaos, it's democracy as bush should learn it.
Mirvat thinks assasinations aren't internal chaos and the Hariri killing happened after the summer war...Nice! 0h, what civil war? Never happened! Zionist revisionist history....LOL!!
assassinations are either carried out directly by external powers or indirectly through helping hands in the country and this is how our internal differences are directly caused and directly reflect the external interests in the region and the tide for the power balance in the ME. who benefited from Hariri's killing? the lebanese? all the lebanese parties lost. it's divide and conquer yes? and to divide you need an instigator which in this case was this incident to push for the anti-syrian feeling in lebanon and to divert our attention from israel and to prepare for the summer war. forget how the israelis were soliciting the cedar party support?
the civil war, contrary to what people portray, was about the same reasons that we are divided about today. the sectarian differences that caused the civil war in iraq are simply about sectarian differences. civil war in lebanon is always about being torn between our support to the palestinians (forgetting it was about the PLO originally) and our fear of the empire (US/Israel). some lebanese parties support US/Israel out of something more than fear.. maybe a lack of identification with the arabic neighbors which is understandable but most of the people just want to live and realistically give up since lebanon cannot stand against anyone.
our ideology though as lebanese and shared and united among us all (except for the LF who are supporters of israel since they're fascists themselves), pro-palestinians, arab nationalists, anit-syrians, we're all anti-Israeli. as long as the palestinians suffer and every arab will be till a just peace prevails. and i don't talk about the leaders of course in the case of the US-friendly arabic states, i talk about the people who are all anti-israeli.
rhiannon, as you can see, rants are most welcome here :)
Mirvat-
That's the problem...the only thing that binds you is the anti-Israel sentiment. It's not because you really like your fellow countrymen, it's that they dislike someone you dislike. At the end of the day it's all about Muslim versus non-Muslim interests. You belittle the impact of sectarian violence...isn't that what 1948 was all about? Isn't that what the whole Middle East was about when the Ottoman Empire fell and ALL the Middle Eastern states were created?
So what's going to happen when someone decides to divide Lebanon into 2 states? Is it really going to happen because one of them hated Israel a little less than other one?
you think 1948 was about sectarian violence and anti-muslim feelings? what about all the time when palestinian jews and arab jews lived in the ME in peace? it wasn't until palestinians were kicked out of their lands till the resentment started. those same palestinians who were driven into my country and had to live in abject poverty in camps. those same palestinians who still suffer and are thrown in jails and tortured and killed and who kids have lost the will to live. 1948 was about the brits allocating more than half the country to a foreign entity and kicking the endogenous people out without hesitation. good old colonialism. was about the incoming people snatching 90 % of the country. it's about the living palestinians who still cry for their country they long lost and the remaining who cry for food.
it's also the palestinian christians who are treated like crap. so you see it's not anti-non muslim.. your country was built on anti-non jewish elitism and racism. and you have the guts to talk about christians in lebanon being under-represented when our president is chistian and when they represent the majority of leadership.
see, we sure do disagree regarding the extent of our hate for israel or how willing some of us to resist versus the rest who want to bend over. it's true. this is why i say our internal conflict is a direct result of israel's aggression. once we don't have a reason to hate them.. you know once the palestinians are treated like human beings and lebanon is not threatened and attacked constantly, we might then all agree like we have since 1998. we'll always have slight divides, nothing major, which constitutes any democratic representation really. it's healthy.
Mirvat--
The Shiites are mobilizing in Iran, Iraq, and Lebanon. Saudi Arabia is worried because the Shiites are in the oil-rich eastern part.
1948 happened because of a rejection of moderation. Jews became Israelis over a greater part of Palestine than was bargained for directly as a result of this rejection. You argue that this moderation of partition wasn't really fair, and what were Arabs supposed to do etc. etc....yet what you call for now is the same form of moderation that was proposed before! I would sympathize with your point if you felt that 1948 UN partition should have been accepted...remember neither Jews NOR Palestinians had an independent state at the time.
You say it has nothing to do with Jews but but you argue that since Jews immigrated too much into Palestine the Arabs were forced to resist. I don't understand if it's not about Jews. If Arabs immigrated would it be OK? Is this not a Muslim versus non-Muslim thing yet?
snurd do you forget the massacres that were committed in the palestinians back then?
there are pictures for this to this day
if arabs did that to the palestinians back then they would be hated too! most of the arabic people hate saddam because he invaded kuweit, hate hafez assad because he tortured and killed.
it's not about muslim versus non-muslim. it's about being opposed to injustice.
Arab Riots of the 1920’s
By Jacqueline Shields
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At the end of World War I, discussions commenced on the future of the Middle East, including the disposition of Palestine. On April 19, 1920, the Allies, Britain, France, Italy and Greece, Japan and Belgium, convened in San Remo, Italy to discuss a peace treaty with Turkey. The Allies decided to assign Great Britain the mandate over Palestine on both sides of the Jordan River, and the responsibility for putting the Balfour Declaration into effect. Arab nationalists were unsure how best to react to British authority. The two preeminent Jerusalem clans, the el-Husseinis and the Nashashibis, battled for influence throughout the mandate, as they had for decades before. The former was very anti-British, whereas the latter favored a more conciliatory policy.
One of the el-Husseinis, Haj Amin, who emerged as the leading figure in Palestinian politics during the mandate period, first began to organize small groups of suicide groups, fedayeen ("one who sacrifices himself"), to terrorize Jews in 1919 in the hope of duplicating the success of Kemal in Turkey and drive the Jews out of Palestine, just as the Turkish nationalists were driving the Greeks from Turkey. The first large Arab riots took place in Jerusalem in the intermediary days of Passover, April 1920. The Jewish community had anticipated the Arab reaction to the Allies' convention, and was ready to meet it. Jewish affairs in Palestine were then being administered from Jerusalem by the Vaad Hatzirim (Council of Delegates), appointed by the World Zionist Organization (WZO) (which became the Jewish Agency in 1929 ). The Vaad Hatzirim charged Ze'ev (Vladimir) Jabotinsky with the task of organizing Jewish self-defense. Jabotinsky was one of the founders of the Jewish battalions, which had served in the British Army during the First World War and had participated in the conquest of Palestine from the Turks. Acting under the auspices of the Vaad Hatzirim, Jabotinsky lead the Haganah (self-defense) organization in Jerusalem, which succeeded in repelling the Arab attack. Six Jews were killed and some 200 injured in Jerusalem in the course of the 1920 riots. Had it not been for the preliminary organization of Jewish defense, the number of victims would have undoubtedly been much greater.
After the riots, the British arrested both Arabs and Jews. Among those arrested was Jabotinsky, together with 19 of his associates, on a charge of illegal possession of weapons. Jabotinsky was sentenced to 15 years imprisonment with hard labor and deportation from the country after completion of his sentence. When the sentence became known, the Vaad Hatzirim made plans for widespread protests, including mass demonstrations and a national fast. Meanwhile, however, the mandate for Palestine had been assigned to Great Britain, and the jubilation of the Yishuv outweighed the desire to protest against the harsh sentence imposed on Jabotinsky and his comrades.
With the arrival in Jerusalem of the first High Commissioner, Sir Herbert Samuel, British military government was superseded by a civilian administration. As a gesture toward the civilian population, the High Commissioner proclaimed a general amnesty for both Jews and Arabs who had been involved in the April 1920 riots. Jabotinsky and his comrades were released from prison to an enthusiastic welcome by the Yishuv, but Jabotinsky insisted that the sentence passed against them be revoked entirely, arguing that the defender should not be placed on trial with the aggressor. After months of struggle, the British War Office finally revoked the sentences.
In 1921, Haj Amin el-Husseini began to organize larger scale fedayeen to terrorize Jews. Colonel Richard Meinertzhagen, former head of British military intelligence in Cairo, and later Chief Political Officer for Palestine and Syria, wrote in his diary that British officials "incline towards the exclusion of Zionism in Palestine." In fact, the British encouraged the Arabs to attack the Jews. According to Meinertzhagen, Col. Waters Taylor, financial adviser to the Military Administration in Palestine 1919-23, met with Haj Amin a few days before Easter, in 1920, and told him "he had a great opportunity at Easter to show the world...that Zionism was unpopular not only with the Palestine Administration but in Whitehall and if disturbances of sufficient violence occurred in Jerusalem at Easter, both General Bols [Chief Administrator in Palestine, 1919-20] and General Allenby [Commander of Egyptian Force, 1917-19, then High Commissioner of Egypt] would advocate the abandonment of the Jewish Home. Waters-Taylor explained that freedom could only be attained through violence."
Haj Amin took the Colonel's advice and instigated a riot. The British withdrew their troops and the Jewish police from Jerusalem, and the Arab mob attacked Jews and looted their shops. Due to Haj Amin's overt role in instigating the pogrom, the British arrested him. Yet, despite the arrest, Haj Amin escaped to Jordan, but he was sentenced to 10 years imprisonment in absentia. A year later, however, British Arabists convinced High Commissioner Herbert Samuel to pardon Haj Amin and to appoint him Mufti.
Samuel met with Haj Amin on April 11, 1921, and was assured "that the influences of his family and himself would be devoted to tranquility." Three weeks later, however, riots in Jaffa and Petah Tikvah, instigated by the Mufti, left 43 Jews dead. Following these riots England established the Haycraft Commission to evaluate the cause of these riots. The appendix of the report reads, "The fundamental cause of the Jaffa riots and the subsequent acts of violence was a feeling among the Arabs of discontent with, and hostility to, the Jews, due to political and economic causes, and connected with Jewish immigration, and with their conception of Zionist policy as derived from Jewish exponents . . . the Arab majority, who were generally the aggressors, inflicted most of the casualties."
Following these riots, Haj Amin consolidated his power and took control of all Muslim religious funds in Palestine. He used his authority to gain control over the mosques, the schools and the courts. No Arab could reach an influential position without being loyal to the Mufti. As the "Palestinian" spokesman, Haj Amin wrote to Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill in 1921, demanding that restrictions be placed on Jewish immigration and that Palestine be reunited with Syria and Transjordan. Churchill issued the White Paper of 1922, which tried to allay Arab fears about the Balfour Declaration. The White Paper acknowledged the need for Jewish immigaration to enable the Jewish community to grow, but placed the familiar limit of the country's absorptive capacity on immigration. Although not pleased with Churchill's diplomatic Paper, the Zionists accepted it; the Arabs, however, rejected it.
Despite the disturbances in 1920-1921, the yishuv continued to develop in relative peace and security. The yishuv's main concern at that time was its financial difficulties; the economic crisis of 1926-1928 led many to believe that the Zionist enterprise would fail due to lack of funds. Zionist leaders attempted to rectify the situation by expanding the Jewish Agency to incorporate non-Zionists who were willing to contribute to the practical settlement of Palestine.
The prospects for renewed financial support for the yishuv upset Arab leaders who feared economic domination by the Zionists. Led by Haj Amin al-Husseini once again, rumors of a Jewish plot to seize control of Muslim holy places began to spread. Violence erupted soon after, causing extensive damage. Rioting and looting were rampant throughout Palestine. In Jerusalem, Muslims provoked the violence and tensions by building and praying on or near the holiest place in the world for Jews, the Western Wall. By late August, the Arabs, in well organized formation, attacked Jewish settlements near Jerusalem. The disturbances spread to Hebron and Tsfat, including many settlements in between, and on the Kfar Dorom kibbutz in the Gaza Strip. After six days of rioting, the British finally brought in troops to quell the disturbance. Despite the fact that Jews had been living in Gaza and Hebron for centuries, following these riots, the British forced Jews to leave their homes and prohibited Jews from living in the Gaza strip and Hebron in an attempt to appease Arabs and quell violence. By the end of the rioting, 135 Jews were killed, with more than 300 wounded.
Like the riots earlier in the decade, afterward the British appointed Sir William Shaw to head an inquiry into the causes of the riots. The Shaw Commission found that the violence occurred due to "racial animosity on the part of the Arabs, consequent upon the disappointment of their political and national aspirations and fear for their economic future." The report claimed that the Arabs feared economic domination by a group who seemed to have, from their perspective, unlimited funding from abroad. The Commission reported that the conflict stemmed from different interpretations of British promises to both Arabs and Jews. The Commission acknowledged the ambiguity of former British statements and recommended that the government clearly define its intentions for Palestine. It also recommended that the issue of further Jewish immigration be more carefully considered to avoid "a repetition of the excessive immigration of 1925 and 1926." The issue of land tenure would only be eligible for review if new methods of cultivation stimulated considerable growth of the agricultural sector. The Shaw Commission frustrated Zionists, but the two subsequent reports issued on the future of Palestine were more disturbing. The Hope Simpson report of 1930 painted an unrealistic picture of the economic capacity of the country. It cast doubt on the prospect of industrialization and incorrectly asserted that no more than 20,000 families could be accomodated by the land. The Hope Simpson report was overshadowed, however, by the simultaneous release of the Passfield White Paper, which reflected colonial Secretary Passfield's deep-seated animus toward Zionism. This report asserted that Britain's obligations to the Arabs were very weighty and should not be overlooked to satisfy Jewish interests. Many argued that the Passfield Paper overturned the Balfour Declaration, essentialy saying that Britain should not plan to establish a Jewish state. The Passfield Paper greatly upset Jews, and interestingly, also the labor and conservative parties in the British Parliament. The result of this widespread outcry to the Secretary's report was a letter from British Prime Minister MacDonald to Dr. Chaim Weizmann, reaffirming the commitment to create a Jewish homeland.
The Arabs found rioting to be a very effective political tool becasue the British attitude toward violence against Jews, and their response to the riots, encouraged more outbreaks of violence. In each riot, the British would make little or no effort to prevent the Arabs from attacking the Jews. After each incident, a commission of inquiry would try to establish the cause of the riot. The conclusions were always the same: the Arabs were afraid of being displaced by Jewish immigrants. To stop the disturbances, the commissions routinely recommended that restrictions be made on Jewish immigration. Thus, the Arabs came to recognize that they could always stop Jewish immigration by staging a riot. Despite the restrictions placed on its growth, the Jewish population increased to more than 160,000 by the 1930's, and the community became solidly entrenched in Palestine. Unfortunately, as the Jewish presence grew stronger, so did the Arab opposition. The riots brought recognition from the international Jewish community to the struggle of the settlers in Palestine, and more than $600,000 was raised for an emergency fund that was used to finance the cost of restoring destroyed or damaged homes, establish schools, and build nurseries.
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to be fair i will read this when i get the chance.
Interesting dialogs happening here!
Just to clarify my own train of thoughts for others again, I was less interested to inquire how and what happened why and when in the past in my previous posts, I was basically interested what can be done NOW in the Middle East.
I personally came to the conclusion, that any change has to start from within, within the person, within the country or location. Pointing fingers will not do it, even if totally justifiable.
Zee, this is the answer; this is the solution
We need the numbers of these people to grow in Israel – profoundly
November 2003
Four former chiefs of Israel's powerful domestic security service said in an interview that the government of Israel’s actions and policies during the three-year-old Palestinian uprising has gravely damaged the country and its people.
The four, who variously headed the Shin Bet security agency from 1980 to 2000 under governments that spanned the political spectrum, said that Israel must end its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, that the government must stop what one called the immoral treatment of Palestinians.
Avraham Shalom:
"We must once and for all admit that there is another side – the Palestinians - that they have feelings and that they are suffering, and that we are behaving disgracefully. Yes, there is no other word for it: disgracefully. . . . We have turned into a people of petty fighters using the wrong tools."
Maj. Gen. Ami Ayalon, who headed the Shin Bet agency from 1996 until 2000 and is co-author of a peace petition signed by tens of thousands of Israelis and Palestinians, said: "We are taking sure and measured steps to a point where the state of Israel will no longer be a democracy and a home for the Jewish people."
These Israeli security chiefs denounced virtually every major military and political tactic of the Sharon administration, adding their voices to the dissent in Israel against the prime minister's handling of a conflict that has claimed the lives of more than 2,500 Palestinians and nearly 900 Israelis and foreigners.
The country's top general has criticized Sharon's clampdown on Palestinians in the West Bank; active and reserve Air Force pilots have publicly declared the military's use of missiles and bombs to kill militants in civilian neighborhoods to be "immoral"; activists have initiated independent peace proposals.
Yaakov Perry, whose term as security chief of Shin Bet between 1988 and 1995 covered the first Palestinian uprising, or intifada:
"Israel is going in the direction of decline, nearly a catastrophe in almost every area - economic, political, social and security. If something doesn't happen here, we will continue to live by the sword, we will continue to wallow in the mud and we will continue to destroy ourselves.”
[More insane drippings oozing off the Zion House of Horrors]
"The Arabs found rioting to be a very effective political tool becasue the British attitude toward violence against Jews, and their response to the riots, encouraged more outbreaks of violence. In each riot, the British would make little or no effort to prevent the Arabs from attacking the Jews."
Allow me, snurdzly, to fix this hideous propaganda from the zionist jellybot, Jacqueline Shields:
WRONG.
The zionists were power, land, blood-hungry and the British got fed up with them and left. Which served the zionist agenda neatly. Now they could murder with greater ease without British interference.
So there you have it in a nutshell:
When one gets in the way of the zionists, be prepared to be harassed and/or DIE.
Examples:
Rachel Corrie
Jimmy Miller
The 240 American troops in Lebanon
The British in 40s Palestine
the real Jews in 40s Palestine
and so many more like these....
[it doesn't end with you, does it?] "the Arabs were afraid of being displaced by Jewish immigrants. To stop the disturbances, the commissions routinely recommended that restrictions be made on Jewish immigration."
Spoonfeeding people junk like this is like serving frootloops for dinner instead steak, potatoes, and salad. The Palestinians WERE BEING DISPLACED. And the Palestinians DID BECOME DISPLACED - viciously - violently - fatally - the young - the elderly - and all ages between.
snurdit, your outfit is simply rehashing history, sanitizing and trying to remove its filthy stains and scars with all that "cleansing" propaganda.
Lady MacBeth makes a grand and most accurate zionist!: Out damn spot! Out!
Your hate propaganda detergents won't work.
Restrictions made on 'jewish' immigration?
WHY SO SHY? WHY SO INHIBITED? HESITANT? APOLOGETIC? C'MON, LET THE TRUTH OUT!
The fact is, with all the mountains of money from France, Germany, USA, the zionists were feeding the 'jewish'immigration into Palestine - and with all the advanced weaponry of that time coming from Germany and Poland, and possibly the USA...THEREFORE...there was no chance of any halt or hesitation of 'jewish zionist' immigration into Palestine.
And so I say: NO SALE! to your drip dry propaganda.
I can't believe you guys are still at it.
Snurdly has proven through his/her comments that there is no room for honest debate and obviously no room for truth. These comments are twisted and only serve to propell a zionist agenda. So these comments I discount.
Zee seems to have good intentions but is gravely missinformed. And not caring about what happened in the past is ignorant (with all due respect). The past and past injustice is why we are here and continue to struggle. It is not about the Palestinians or Lebanese "choosing" to be in this state fo affairs.
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it"
- George Santayana
Rhiannon, I respect your intelligence and your passion on the subject. combating these elements is fine and just. I myself do not have that much energy.
Mirvat, you've made some valid points about being opposed to injustice, too often people struggles are tossed aside because they are of one religious sect.
In Lebanon there are muslims and christians on both sides of the arguement. Also, most people would have deleted most of this conversation, you have been more than fair.
If my comments have come long after this conversation has ended, forgive me, I've been protesting for the past few days.
Hello Mohammad, what were you protesting? just curious
No Ibrahim, I am over-informed - so are most readers on this forum. I don't shun history, and knowledge of history will not serve any purpose to anyone anymore. The attitude and movement of people in the present will determine the outcome of the future, yes ... with or without an historic perspective, mostly without ...
"WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO NOW!" is the question people ask involved on the grounds of conflict, physically being on the grounds of conflict!!!! Those people don't give a flying fuck about understanding history. They are solely interested to sell their Lemons they recently harvested to the Friday marked in the town square and save their siblings to be maimed or killed as an additional task.
So what in all earth do you expect - have people in the occupied territories read up on history or/and get an DSL internet connection? You guys are so fucking removed from reality it makes my liver go into involuntary convulsions.
Rhiannon , Ibrahim and anybody else don't need to convince me that something is out of line. I knew that while you still had your diapers changed every four hours. So it makes no sense to convince me about something that I was already convinced about when you were trying to say "lalila" in your crib.
You are trying to convert a person who was converted before you even knew how to breathe properly. What an idle game!
Instead, focus on the "ground" - the people who are directly affected. That's the advice from an old grumpy person who has seen it all.
Well, I'm amazed. Zee, you're asuming my age and experience. I have been around for a long time and have lived through all this hell, during the Izraeli invasion of Lebanon and the consequent occupation for 28 years. (Side note: Israel never left Lebanon)
I've witnessed the pure evil.
I don't suggest the people on the ground go back and chat on-line or read mine or your history book, but I do suggest we look at history and learn from it. Too often the response to why things are the way they are is that it is our fault, just like blaming African-Americans for not being the elite in the US or being president or having the same education and so on. Or blaming Native Americans not having any land and so on.
For the people on the ground the average Lebanese who has had their politics dictated to them, I would say "Fight back". Everyone should fight for their rights since noone will volunteeringly give it to them.
BTW Mone: I was protesting the Lebanese government.
I know where you're coming from, but you have no idea where I'm from.
We are removed from reality? Woo Hoo! What a riot! zee loves to tell his silly jokes.
But you're not funny. Not even amusing. Not even close.
The Palestinians do not have to learn history. THey live their history every single day. Their past never left them. And that is not their fault. It is YOURS and mine, and all of us who turn a deaf ear and blind eye to the reality of the Middle East - because every now and then - believe it or not - the truth does have a way of surfacing.
And this is what Middle Eastern people know, and if they don't, THEY SHOULD KNOW, and what Americans should and must learn one day: The Americans are paying for the disintegration of the Middle East. And it is costing them dearly. The Palestinians and Lebanese are CONNECTED. These connections are very important for the American people to understand and what the zionist movement tries hard to keep separated and blurred in their press. WHat befalls the Palestinians befalls the Lebanese. And so it goes with Iraq. You cannot separate these countries anymore than you can separate any one of the burroughs of New York City from New York.
And that is right, Ibrahim. 'israel' never left Lebanon and 'israel' never left Gaza. And 'israel' is the reason for the slaughter in Iraq, not Hussein.
Your sarcasm on the Palestinians hooking up to the Internet to learn the history scored no points.
It is the Americans who need the history lessons of the Palestinians and what was done to them - and not that phoney gobbledy gook from snurd. It is the Americans who are so far removed from reality when it comes to the Middle East. They all need to wake up and wake up badly! Their dollars are paying for bloodshed - blood being shed for a most unworthy and inhuman cause.
Furthermore, it is the American's children's blood for the blood of the Middle Eastern children. And the Americans don't even realize this. And when they do, imagine the change, the uproar.
Katrina is an excellent example. What happened to those Katrina victims was despicable! People starving, suffering the crimes of robbery, harrassment, rape, and even murder. The military finally coming in with orders to shoot, for chrissakes, without so much as to find out the reasons why they were shooting people - just to keep order.
Tell me: Where was the money and resources to take care of America's own?
For one who preaches to others about resolving issues internally - I must say - you need to practice some of this Ghandi approach yourself. You're just a little too hot-tempered for your own good - regardless of what age you are and how 'over-informed' you are, which by the way, their is no such thing.
For your info Rhiannon - I am not an US citizen or "American" solely, I am a bastard of mixed decent with dual nationality.
But you wouldn't give a shit, since all that I try to convert on this blog is crap in your eyes.
I'll just say this before I shut my mouth for good:
As long as there are people like you around, peace in the Middle East will never happen!
You gotta slow down lady, bitching on a computer from Canada will do nothing to the dilemma.
Go to Lebanon or Palestine and help the people instead - that's what I'm planing to do in 2007 because of lately I have time on my hands. Be proactive instead of bitching at "bits and bytes" (me) on the internet. That solves 'rien de tout'!
Hasta la vista - Zee
PS Rhiannon,
get your own blog so I can bitch on it when my acidity levels in my stomach rise to above average levels ... you chicken you!
Hilarious.
You live in New York, don't you?
You pay TAXES, don't you?
These in themselves is enough. So your mixed descent is useless to me and to what I posted above.
Here's some advice: You gotta slow down, boy! Bitching on your computer from New York and throwing temper tantrums just because I don't agree with you will do nothing to solve the dilemma of the Middle East.
Lebanon would be fine to go to, but I would rather you went to Gaza or the West Bank.
And when you go, my words will come back to haunt you.
haha..Rhiannon, u r too funny..
I think in the Middle East being Lebanon, Palestine, Syria or whatever, there is so much that we, arabs, need to work on and address.
We are very poorly rated in many areas, pollution wise, humanely wise, and democracy wise..ect
When I met some of the Green Peace members last year in Lebanon, I was full of hope that someone is doing something to address factory pollutions and other things. Beirut is very polluted by the way, you can smell the exhaust pollution everywhere...
But then there was the bombings of Israel this year that brought the country many years back. Now instead of worrying about encouraging tree planting in areas where it needed it most and work with factories on reducing pollution.. we are worried about picking up 1000 dead bodies, range of beaches that got extremely and dangerously polluted..and homeless people everywhere..
Shit...!!! I hope Israel just leave us the fuck alone.. Get out of this piece of shit Shabaa's farm and get lost with your own problems with Palestinians and your own economy... Just leave us a lone..
We love to blame everything on Israel, I oppose that. I think we need to work on ourselves, but Israel wouldn't just leave, it encourages with its action radical groups and divert the attention all the time to war. Now HA is stronger than ever it was. Not that I am against this group or another, I just want to get out of this mentality of fighting all the creeping time....!!!
Forget it Mone. When you say:
"I just want to get out of this mentality of fighting all the creeping time....!!!"
Say it all you want. The poverty and the killing will not go away.
When you say:
"We love to blame everything on Israel, I oppose that. I think we need to work on ourselves, but Israel wouldn't just leave, it encourages with its action radical groups and divert the attention all the time to war."
Well I say: Make up your mind. 'israel' will not stop its hateful and illegal policies against its neighbours, regardless of the pollution in Beirut or anyone's passionate weariness of fighting.
Lebanon HAS tried to fix Herself and get Her act together. Do you really think that the USA and 'israel' want Lebanon to be economically fruitful, politically sound, and democracy strong?? Think again.
It is not that I "love" to blame 'israel', it is more that I MUST blame 'israel' for MOST of the mess. I'm always including the USA, Canada, Europe and Britain here. Especially the USA. But in no way do I dilute my blame against 'israel'. Certainly not until 'israel' changes its sick ways.
What are you going to do Mone? When you see a little boy in your neighborhood getting beaten regularly by teenage boys? Are you going to say that it's his fault for the beatings? For whatever misgivings or personality quirks or even race - this little boy has - how is it justified for older and stronger boys to pummel a young one who can't defend himself?
Child abuse is another good analogy.
Palestine is no different when pitted against the powers of the world.
Forget about Palestine's lack of money, food, and resources, and the forever unorganized Hamas. Instead, always remember this: Palestine does not have a trillion dollar powerful press to protect Her and LIE for Her like 'israel' has.
Where were you Mone, July and August? When the great whore "Candy" Rice was spitting through her fangs as she was making her grand announcements to the world for days on end:
"'israel' has a right to protect itself."
"israel" has a right to exist."
"Doesn't it?"
If I could hear God's voice would He have laughed or wept?
It was the wrong country being addressed. In our world the truth is only an assumption and the Lie puts money in people's pockets.
But here are the appropriate questions and answers that the world should have been listening to in July and August (and all other time before and after):
"Does Palestine/Lebanon have a right to exist? Yes."
"Does Palestine/Lebanon have a right to defend Themselves? Yes."
My dear friend, you missed my point. but regardless I still love you :)
Here is a poem that I really love called "Like This" by Rumi:
If anyone asks you
how the perfect satisfaction
of all our sexual wanting
will look, lift your face
and say,
Like this.
When someone mentions the gracefulness
of the nightsky, climb up on the roof
and dance and say,
Like this?
When someone quotes the old poetic image about clouds gradually uncovering the moon, slowly loosen knot by knot the strings of your robe. Like this?
If anyone wonders how Jesus raised the dead, don't try to explain the miracle.
Kiss me on the lips.
Like this. Like this.
When someone asks what it means
to "die for love," point here.
If someone asks how tall I am, frown
and measure with your fingers the space
between the creases on your forehead.
This tall.
The soul sometimes leaves the body, then returns.
When someone doesn't believe that,
walk back into my house.
Like this.
When lovers moan,
they're telling our story.
Like this.
When someone asks what there is to do,
light the candle in his hand.
Like this.
How did Joseph's scent come to Jacob?
Huuuu.
How did Jacob's sight return?
Huuuuu.
When Shams comes back from Tabriz,
he'll put just his head around the edge
of the door to surprise us.
Like this.
Very nice Mone!
Thanks for sharing.
Mone, very lovely.
Yes, you gotta love me when I miss the point - but I'm sorry, I do not know what point I missed.
==========
However, I am rather like a pitbull when it comes to 'israel'. And so I will say it again as you said something that I had to pounce on:
I do not "love" blaming 'israel' for everything. However I MUST blame 'israel' for MOST of everything. That is as fair as I can be - in light of the history between Palestine and 'israel'.
As for solving the issues of the Middle East: To me, Education is key. It's a beginning for those who do not want to be exactly like a Rachel Corrie or a Jimmy Miller, or even a Cindy Sheehan - bless their magnificent souls.
Everyone has a responsibility to learn the truth - no matter HOW or WHEN they get there. And then from there it is up to each one to decide what to do with the truth.
At least learn the truth.
I was watching 5 minutes of Glen Beck this evening. That 5 minutes was all I could take. I can see where snrud gets his information. Or is the the other way around?
Does it really matter?
How sweet it is to get paid 1,200,000+ usa dollars /year to smear the name and history of the Arabs every now and then on a popular show.
forget my point :) I do love your passion...someone like you must be passionate about everything she does ;)
zee are you really moving to the ME? i guess i'll ask you over the phone.
and rhiannon already has a blog ;)
what s Rhiannon's blog ? I can't find it in her profile... I tried something like iloveisrael.blogspot.com but it wasn't her :):) it was someone else to my surprise...
Also, I wonder if someone can tell me about this problem I m having.
In my profile, the items don't show as Hyper Links. They just show as text while in others like Rhiannon they show as links..I checked couple, Mirvat's profile show as links, Zee's don't...what s up with that ??
no she doesn't have a blog but she really should! i meant she can write here and consider this forum hers :)
mone i don't know but those links are irrelevant anyway
actually those links are nice, because you can click on them and they will filter out blogs of people with same interests :)
Mirvat, Thank You :-)
Mone, iloveisrael.blogspot.com???
u r funny.
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