Sunday, December 24, 2006

On Israel's "Right to Exist"


Now that the Palestinian civil war long sought by Israel, the U.S. and the EU appears on the verge of breaking out, it may be timely to examine the justification put forward by Israel, the U.S. and the EU for their collective punishment of the Palestinian people in retaliation for their having made the "wrong" choice in last January's democratic election -- the refusal of Hamas to "recognize Israel" or to "recognize Israel's existence" or to "recognize Israel's right to exist".
These three verbal formulations have been used by media, politicians and even diplomats interchangeably, as though they mean the same thing. They do not.

"Recognizing Israel" or any other state is a formal legal/diplomatic act by a state with respect to another state. It is inappropriate -- indeed, nonsensical -- to talk about a political party or movement, even one in a sovereign state, extending diplomatic recognition to a state. To talk of Hamas "recognizing Israel" is simply sloppy, confusing and deceptive shorthand for the real demand being made.
"Recognizing Israel's existence" is not a logical nonsense and appears on first impression to involve a relatively straightforward acknowledgement of a fact of life -- like death and taxes. Yet there are serious practical problems with this formulation. What Israel, within what borders, is involved? The 55% of historical Palestine recommended for a Jewish state by the UN General Assembly in 1947? The 78% of historical Palestine occupied by Israel in 1948 and now viewed by most of the world as "Israel" or "Israel proper"?
The 100% of historical Palestine occupied by Israel since June 1967 and shown as "Israel" on maps in Israeli schoolbooks? Israel has never defined its own borders, since doing so would, necessarily, place limits on them. Still, if this were all that were being demanded of Hamas, it might be possible for it to acknowledge, as a fact of life, that a State of Israel exists today within some specified borders.
"Recognizing Israel's right to exist", the actual demand, is in an entirely different league. This formulation does not address diplomatic formalities or simple acceptance of present realities. It calls for a moral judgment.
There is an enormous difference between "recognizing Israel's existence" and "recognizing Israel's right to exist". From a Palestinian perspective, the difference is in the same league as the difference between asking a Jew to acknowledge that the Holocaust happened and asking him to acknowledge that it was "right" that the Holocaust happened -- that the Holocaust (or, in the Palestinian case, the Nakba) was morally justified.

To demand that Palestinians recognize "Israel's right to exist" is to demand that a people who have for almost 60 years been treated, and continue to be treated, as sub-humans publicly proclaim that they ARE sub-humans -- and, at least implicitly, that they deserve what has been done, and continues to be done, to them. Even 19th century U.S. governments did not require the surviving Native Americans to publicly proclaim the "rightness" of their ethnic cleansing by the Pale Faces as a condition precedent to even discussing what reservation might be set aside for them -- under economic blockade and threat of starvation until they shed whatever pride they had left and conceded the point."---By John V. Whitbeck. Full article here.
What feels amazing to me is that, growing up, we did not speak of Israel. Saying the name Israel will give us feelings of fear and resentment and absolute hate. We did not understand why we hated to hear that name because, believe it or not, we were not raised on hate or on politics. Our parents wanted what is better for us. It was very hard though not to be exposed to the hate the Palestinians who took refuge in Lebanon carried with them and since they became part of the Lebanese society eventually, it became part of our national memory as well. The hate did.

When one grows up, one tries to examine his values and i do not say re-examine. I had the time and the freedom to think about how i feel towards Israel. I had to get rid of the pre-conceived ideas and the rooted feelings that were even involuntarily planted in me by my society. As a kid, the name Israel was associated with fear, with running for life, with neighbors getting blown up in the invasion of Beirut, with poor Palestinian refugees and their kids that my mother helped, mostly with confusion seeing my parents being helpless. As an adult, the name Israel evokes pictures of babies blown up under the bombs, ruthlessness and unfairness, mostly it is my turn to feel helpless. I then realized, I did not hate then. Kids do not hate. I hate now.

(And more useful documentaries that mone linked here)

And a short quote nicely summarizing what to anticipate in the war between the US and Iran, posted by Rhiannon (soon to have her own blog to have all this valuable information available in one place and backed up)
"Now, we must turn our attention to Iran. I believe that our government is considering initiating a war with this Islamic mega-power. They aren’t quite sure of exactly how to go about this in order to rally the American people behind this decision. So they will either state that Iran is a nuclear threat, or that their support of the Shiite Muslims in Iraq is empowering the "civil war."But I believe the truth is simpler than that: Iran no longer accepts our dollars for oil. This deflates the dollar on the world market and creates inflation in the United States. Therefore, we might possibly stage a false operation of Iranians killing our soldiers in Iraq in order to give us a good enough reason to declare war.....or we might just sit down and talk to them. The coming election will decide this. If the present administration maintains control of Congress, it might only be a matter of days before a new plan is executed. If control of the House is lost, America will be forced to negotiate. As our position in Iraq becomes more tenuous we are being forced to reassess our foreign policy concerning Syria. The United States has maintained no connection with them stating this isdue to their previous alliance with the Soviet Union and their occupation of Lebanon. Yet, the real reason we refuse to recognize Syria is because Israel captured the Golan Heights in the 1967 war between Israel and the Arabs. Despite a UN resolution stating Israel must return the Golan Heights to Syria, they have never done so. This is because the Golan Heights holds the most precious resource on earth: Water."--- Dannion Brinkley, November 2006.

49 comments:

Lirun said...

fifty (50) qassams have come out of hammas controlled gaza since the ceasefire was declared.. one landing 2 metres from a community centre for children..

you post is based on fundamentally flawed assumptions and very few facts..

i protest against the misinformation..

Mirvat said...

that's no true but i'm not going to repeat the facts with every post. sometimes i wonder lirun.. how can you be so sure about your facts? about your distorted facts? (the nakba is an act that took massacres, driving all these palestinians out of their lands, out of their homes for good.. people are still treated like animals, olmert just allowed the palestinians money that was frozen? was is that? PR? why was it frozen in the first place and why were the people in gaza starving? come on lirun even snurd and andrey said what was happening in gaza in horific)how can you not doubt and question? instead of wanting to close your ears and protesting against blogs and articles.

Anonymous said...

I can tell you why Mirvat. For Lirun and others living there, it is much easier to live a happy life believing that they are the victims rather than the aggressors, it's a human thing...don't blame him too much :) Lirun protests against these qassam rockets (At least this is the third comment in few days) but never showed emotions and called what his government is doing pure murder to humanity, neither did he cry, like he is doing now to stop the bombardment when his country's army was on mass-killing mission in Lebanon this summer...

Anonymous said...

I left a lengthy reply at Fouad's blog who had cited the same article. Maybe I'll dig it up and cut-paste it here.

Mirvat said...

the psychological message behind some of his words, like saying 'palo-bashing in not allowed' in the previous post and his moral equivelance between what happened to the native americans and to the palestinians and calling me and rhiannon accomplices because we live here, basically blaming a lebanese, who criticizes the american government for its wrong doing today, for what the americans did to the native americans.

i see he projects and projects, cognitive dissonence and the racism behind it comes out every now and then in sentences like,
"palo-bashing is not allowed"...

Anonymous said...

Interesting "Counter Punch" article by that lawyer, it gives you time to think. I never had encountered the subtlety of the "name calling" this way myself ...
What's the recipe?
Israel will never "recognize" Palestine out of it's own endeavors and give it a chance to get up on it's feet.
I just can't see it happen, not even in the long run.
As a result, Palestine will get more and more desperate by the day and the population grab the straws left to them, namely Hamas. Can I blame them? No!
I lost hope. There is no cure for that area left anymore in a reuniting way originating out of the parties involved. Neither Israel nor Palestine is able to jump over that hurdle. Instead they build walls and the others use firecrackers to shoot over the wall. It is pretty messed up I would say.
I believe the only way this situation would change to the better, is if the US declared independence again, independence of blindly supporting Israel.
After all, Israel, that petite country in the ME, does not exist by the mercy of god. It exists by a screwed up British ordain done after WW2.
But maybe "God" is the answer to all this.
So I believe that Israel has to reconcile and find a way to live as a nation, not as a destined "god given" country supported by the US empire. They need to be humbled in many ways. Maybe that clause of that lawyer in that article was correct: Establish permanent borders, and some of the grief would vanish immediately; no more swaggering, no more illegal settlements.

As I see it today, there is a grand denial that actually all of this belongs into the category of "religious wars"!
Muslims, Christians and Jews are the main players in this game. I wonder when the day arrives when religion belongs again to be a personal choice and path of inner development, not a state issue.

Have a great Christmas,
L.

Anonymous said...

We are not better. We do not even have social equality in our own country, for our own countrymen!
They are backwards and barbaric in their ways but so are we Mirvat. We can't forget that.

Lirun said...

i did protest througout the entire war in lebanon and i called for an end non stop..

i was so upset when that building was hit in gaza.. i posted all about it..

i protest against the suffering of the gazans all the time..

for some reason you dont hear it..

however the change will not arrive unilaterally..

we continue to uphold a ceasire.. yesterday 4 qassams landed.. one near a day care centre..

this is a timebomb that the hammas has given gaza.. sooner or later something is going to give..

i dont want that..

anyway.. wishing you all a merry christmas..

snurdly said...

The sovereign state of Palestine as never before independent was rejected in 1948. Isael didn't start the war, and no Palestinians were exiled prior to the war. Israel's fault?

Anonymous said...

No Lirun,I don't remember.. give me links to your posts when you cried over Lebanon like you are crying over qassam...may be I did miss them

Anonymous said...

New documentary added:
http://123-thoughts.blogspot.com/2006/12/terrorstorm.html

I may as well offer a summary when I do this,
This is one of the latest sources of information about the intentional demolitions on September 11, 2001

Designers of the towers speak that the buildings were built in a way to withstand planes hitting it. The skyscrapers are built like a screen mesh where a plane going in would act as pencil puncturing a small piece never dangering the whole mesh. The fire would never bring down a building. The steel itself will not rupture or melt due to fire unless intentionally set by explosives.
Explosives were heard, caught on video, just before the towers went down.

Mr. Silverstein had 99 years lease on the towers, the year (or two) before 9/11 Silverstein changed his insurance policy to include terror attacks and his rights to re-build in case of Towers collapse. After the tragedy he demanded double his insurance limit since two scrapers went down instead of one thus doubling his insurance limit. He won, rewarded 7 Billion dollars...
The director who provided electronic security to the towers, Bush's younger brother "Marvin Bush" from 1993-2000, under the company name Securacom where they installed new security system from 1996-2000 for 8.0 Million $. Walker II, the CEO of Securacom, cousin of Bush brothers from 1999-2002, was it that the security system that was added during those years already have the demolition hardware built in?

The story gives you the official story of how they explain how the towers went down compared to the Engineering explanation of why it is not possible. The sample of steels collected show the high grades of steel used that were not affected or "melted down" as the official story tells and how ridiculous the official story is.

Anonymous said...

That new edition is called 9-11 Mysteries produced by a republican who initially was determined the false of conspiracy theories involving the issue. Later after he researched into the subject, he was devastated to find the real..true story.

Rhiannon said...

I really like what this woman has to say:

Review Written by
Shari Peterson


Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11: A Call to Reflection and Action
by David Ray Griffin



David Ray Griffin - a man for truth who demands to be heard, August 22, 2006
I bought the book and just started reading it. I watched the 9/11 Scholars for Truth program on CSPAN - WOW. I saw 9/11 unfold before my eyes on TV. I heard the voices of the people around me in confusion...and then I obsessed about why the secret service didn't whisk our president out of that classroom that fateful day.

Left and right people were fearful, not knowing where the next hijacked plane was going to crash, yet our president was allowed to continue to read to a classroom of children with an airport less than 10 miles away at an event announced days prior in the media.

This tells me the secret service knew WHAT and WHERE the targets WERE and they were not president Bush, so he was safe. Their entire purpose is protecting him, yet on that day they left him exposed and unprotected...but only if they didn't know what was going on.

David Ray Griffin has taken the kind of risk that Jesus took on a daily basis - challenging the establishment to spread his words of truth.

All spiritual people who believe their bodies are just a temple for their soul, must do the same, starting now.

All Christians must do the same.

Fear should not dominate your life. Fear of losing your "stuff", your job or your friends/acceptance should not dominate your life. Even the fear of losing your life should not stop truth from spreading its light.

If you are mired knee deep in the material world so much so that you are not able to make the decision to risk losing the comforts of your physical body by demanding and seeking truth, how are you going to get into heaven, exactly?

Walk the right path of truth and love instead of the wrong path of material goods and not believing God will take care of your needs when necessary.

Anonymous said...

I am amazed how spread these documentaries are, Thanks to youtube and video googles they are reaching more people everyday... The only problem they are still limited to the number of audience and second they are not arranged in an easy to find and share/review way. However, I am sure if this momentum keeps going, the issue will be spread like no other to uncover the most brutal tragedy in our history. I am reviewing now one called Loose Change 2nd Edition Recut

Mirvat said...

keep posting and i'll keep linking :)

Rhiannon said...

Loose Change is awesome. Dylan Avery does an excellent job.

Lirun said...

mone.. matey.. i dont need to.. you can do the googling on your own..

my personal blog is about peace - not about war - so the references on the blog are fewer but i often express my sadness in the blogs of others..

but look at my posts on

saturday december 16

tuesday december 12

look also at http://emspeace.blogspot.com/2006/11/so-sad-right-now.html

Anonymous said...

forget about googling your posts, tell me now, do you think the attack against Lebanon this summer was justified or not? was it a crime against humanity or not?

Anonymous said...

Belief is not a substitute to rationality Mone.
If you live in suburbia somewhere, go to the neighbor and kill eight people in order to to capture the two inhabitants of that neighboring house, that neighbor might get mad or even irrational and shoot a missile towards your house to make it crumble.
C'est la vie ... you provoked it, you own it.
I heard from various places that Israel would have attacked Lebanon anyway and that they were only looking out for an excuse to do so. Well maybe so. That still doesn't give Hezbollah the green card to risk what they did to trigger the domino effect that led to the war last summer.
Was the war and the multitude of reactions of Israel justified? Heck no! It was a massacre indeed... and much more.
But can anyone in Lebanon say: "Nazrahllah - shut the fuck up, stay within the interest of the general Lebanese population"!? I guess not. So as far as I can see, the dilemma will perpetuate over and over again.
So was this war against Lebanon this summer a crime against humanity Mone?

Mirvat said...

of course it was zee
i heard the israeli ambassador to the UN (aka the devil as i call him and tony snow) give the most horrific analogy on CNN. he said if you go in a bank and a robber is hiding behind a hostage and you kill the hostage trying to kill the robber, it's the robber's fault. in this case of course you didn't kill the hostage, you blew all all the bank and the neighboring buildings having babies in them to save the day. more so, the 'robber' is not a robber here, he is merely a home owner trying to negociate in his home with you, a prior invador of his home, on you leaving and leaving his family alone and he had captured one of your associates to twist your arm.
yes it was stupid of him not to consult all the members of the family, yes it was presumptuous of him to think he can win when the ruthless invador can just bomb the whole house before leaving.. yes this is very simplistic but so was the neighbor in suburbia example which is in no way representative of the truth.

Anonymous said...

I think so. It is against humanity to throw a country 20 years back and make thousands homeless, it is absolutely crazy...
Nasrallah said many times, get out of Shabaa Farm and we have no reason to bother you... There is no oil, no real resources in that stupid farm so why don't they exit? Is it not to keep the conflict brewing? can there be another reason?

Anonymous said...

For now, it is to keep the conflict alive Mone ... your right.
So it is with all kind of other "settlements".
Oh Mirvat, my breath is short and my examples lousy. I am just still angry at Nasrallah that he gambled that risk. But maybe he didn't, what do I know ...
Maybe he needed the escalation to .... ah, forget it - I'm going to bed.

Anonymous said...

Good night Zee... Hope you don't dream of politics..its most dirty of all dreams :) instead just think of beautiful women and rivers of wine :)

Rhiannon said...

Considering the agendas 'israel' has got going, its history, its goals, and lack of soul, spirit, and conscience.......it is 'israel' that does the provoking, not Hezbollah.

Why would anyone listen to the reports of and agency - 'israel's - whose motto:

By Deception We Shall Do War.

Why would anyone even bother to take note?

Mirvat said...

rhiannon join the other discussion

Lirun said...

hahahhahahahaha

Anonymous said...

Lirun since you r still here, can u answer my question,

"tell me now, do you think the attack against Lebanon this summer was justified or not? was it a crime against humanity or not?"

Lirun said...

mone..

int law insofar as it relates to war is not my forte.. in fact i would even profess to being mildly underinformed.. however i shall endeavour to respond based on general international legal principles and common law legal reasoning..

israel like any other nation has international legal duties towards it own people.. human rights and international law - notwithstanding our insticts - applies to your own civillians as well..

a country is obligated to defend the safety of its citizens and to ensure its citizens remain safe..

after 6 years of katyushas hailing without any israeli response.. a usurption of our sovereignty directly leading to the kidnapping of our soldiers by a hostile force required reaction under international law.. so in fact we had a duty to react..

by lebanon tolerating the stream of harrassment against us.. it was tacitly supporting or perhaps even participating in this constant violation and unfortunately violating israel's right to quiet and peaceful enjoyment of its sovereign territory..

when a country acts in self defence.. we need to consider where the limits of defence lie and where the borders of agression are transcended.. the test that i apply is the "but for" test - is a consequential test and i ask myself.. "at any given time.. is it possible for me to say that but for my actions the threat against me would cease?"

sadly - during the war this question was not answerable in the affirmative and as a result it was felt that the military campaign had to be sustained until such time..

HA's offensive was solidly entrenched within civillian spaces - this in itself almost serves as an exemption from the consequences.. because if they international law was such that shooting from civillian locations provided immunity from attack for fear of hitting civilian casualties - then all wars would be fought from heavily populated areas and the entire objective of the law would be defeated by definition..

my personal belief is that solutions entrenched in diplomatic relations were under-explored.. however - that is my personal speculation - rather than a determination of error..

aside from international law based in treaty - we also look at customery international law.. ie the norms that prevail between societies in the middle east.. rhiannon wont like this.. but we need to ask - how do other countries in our region and in our circumstances act and do we feel obliged to follow that standard for fear of regional sanction or do we claim some sort of long standing objection to such that we can rely on..

in this case it could be argued that the norm in our region is slaughter.. all our neighbours have responded that way to insurgency and it is considered to be an act that benefits widely from impunity.. however.. we have consistently objected to such conduct and therefore may not necessary seek to apply such custom..

given our unqiue circumstances in this region im not sure we can turn to customary int law.. but in any event.. in the balance of all issues.. we are clearly damned that we have but we would equally have been damned if we didnt.. and therefore i do not consider it a crime or unjustified because it had an important and defensible purpose..

im tired and im not sure this is coherent.. feel free to email me ifyou want to discuss further..

Rhiannon said...

Yeah, nothing like talking to a sociopath.......

"by lebanon tolerating the stream of harrassment against us....

What about Lebanon tolerating your warplanes violating Her air space and breaking sound barriers? What about the cluster bombs of past years [before the invasion of Lebanon of 2006] thrown about by 'israel"? Come, now, who is really tolerating who?


"given our unqiue circumstances in this region im not sure we can turn to customary int law.. .."

That's right. Laws you break like no other country on this planet has ever broken - in the past and now - with such impunity, such aggression, and brazen defiance in the face of decency and humanity. Yeah your 'israel' is QUITE UNIQUE.


".. we are clearly damned that we have but we would equally have been damned if we didnt.. .."

A bastard lie if ever there was one and told with such arrogance. It is YOUR NEIGHBOURS who are DAMNED if they don't and DAMNED if they do. 'israel' has had all the choices and opportunities in this world to make for a better way with its neighbors - the 67 war is a glaring example. Instead of peppering the West Bank and Gaza with ILLEGAL SETTLEMENTS, 'israel' could have done the right thing and given all this land to the Palestinians. THe Golan Heights and later, Shebaa Farms should have never been stolen from the ARabs. Interesting how you dance around these issues with breezy tones of that of a pretentious little "innocent" lamb.

Bowls of shit you call chocolate ice cream.

Anonymous said...

sometimes I wish there were no borders at all and that people could roam freely ...

Anonymous said...

Lirun all this to answer a simple question.. Do you think the action of Israel was justifiable this summer? Bombing a whole country for 2 soldiers that are still up to this day missing with HA? Killing of over 1000 people and sending others homeless? Sending the country 20 years back by knocking its infrastructure?

I looked for clear answer in your lines, never seen you write such long comments before...

Are you hesitant to write that you think you are justified?
Or
Are you hesitant to write that there maybe no other ways when things don't go your way?

Either way, you are not a man of peace, it is a big lie, at least from what I am gathering.

You are more dangerous from the ones who straightforward say they are for war... Oh well.. Life goes on...

Lirun said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Lirun said...

ok.. mone..

you want a straight forward answer..

the fact of responding to HA was justified..

whether all actions in response fell within international law's compliance.. not sure..

a crime against humanity.. dont think so..

not sure why you launch personal attack when i merely responded with opinion.. i was trying to be thorough and give you some of my thoughts..

having lived through the war - having housed people and supported refugees from the war and having had my relatives houses hit by HA rockets and missiles i went through a turbulent time coming to terms with what was going on..

luckily mone.. i dont wait for you to define me.. just as i dont seek to define.. but if i had to.. and if i did.. mirvat's blog would be all the more colourful..

in any event.. notwithstanding your accusations and regardless of your bitter and rhiannonesque words i continue to hope for peace in my region..

cheers

;)

Lirun said...

did someone say chocolate ice cream?

Rhiannon said...

Sorry Mone, you are in dialogue with a sociopath.

Let him suffer what Lebanon suffered through in July/August. He'd be squeaking a different tune and not be talking so passive-aggressively. His hate is thinly disquised.

You know that song by Metallica, Mone, SAD BUT TRUE? The lyrics are befitting of people like leren, and the "country" he/they represent.

He expresses good will and peace, all the while he doesn't care if he stabs us and our children in the back. Such cold conceit.

Peace in your region, leeren, requires giving the Palestinians their lives back. Otherwise, your 'israel' will sink.

Lirun said...

leren.. who's leren..

cute tactic.. very old school..

nice to know you have esp abilities..

sorry rhinoceros i actually want a two state solution.. i am in favour of a dual-use jerusalem.. i want a lively thriving palestine tangoing with a secure and thriving israel..

i want children to feel safe at school and home without needing bunkers and shelters..

i want qassam katyusha zilzal haibar to mean nothing and to be forgotten terms..

not so sure what is sad about my hopes - except for the fact that some people are so immersed in their own obsession with hatred that all they can see is painted in its surreal colours..

i will not bow down to you in apologies just as i dont ask you to.. i will not cut off my own ears and head and whatever else just as i dont ask you to..

sorry rabies but it aint going to happen..

mone.. you disappoint me man.. i thought your spectrum of perception was broader..

maybe over time you and i will once again see things through a common window.. it saddens me that you have falled into rancid's trap of scavanging just for bad.. i reckon you're better than that..

wishing you all a great 28 december 2006 - you can be angry all you like right now.. but guess what.. you'll never get another chance to live through 28 december 2006.. your choice..

Lirun said...

oops fallen

;)

Anonymous said...

man..what can I say...forget it..

"whether all actions in response fell within international law's compliance.. not sure..

a crime against humanity.. dont think so.."


I do think you have double standards and living in your own word. Any human with common sense can't stand and say but Action against Lebanon was unfounded. some MPs here in Canada said it, Liberals and NDPs said it, (Only Harper support but he is a puppet of US and against Kyoto) Canadians newspapers and finally even U.S themselves wanted to stop the barbaric unfounded action... You, as calling for peace should just condemn it at least..

Anyways, one thing is good is you expressed your opinion clearly and I appreciate that...

Anonymous said...

Sad but true, a favorite song for sure.. :)

Lirun said...

u know.. its interesting.. because you ask for my opinion and then fault it for not matching what you think it should be based on a supposed "factual" basis..

the most consistent feature of people who criticise israel is that they are not prepared in anyway to acknowledge their own part in the mess..

you may have ingored the part where i said "my personal belief is that solutions entrenched in diplomatic relations were under-explored.. however - that is my personal speculation - rather than a determination of error.."

my point being that we both failed.. but i dont think this makes me a criminal and them saints..

mone.. dude.. i need you to start taking a broader view of issues.. otherwise you're wasted..

Anonymous said...

it is also my freedom of thinking that anyone who doesn't see the bombing of Lebanon as a pure criminal act is not a real person of peace...

Off course you can think of yourself as man of peace or Santa or whatever..it s your freedom as well..

Mirvat said...

I'm just going to comment on one thing
Lirun you said it's not a crime against humanity and all the time you ask people to be fair and unbiased. i don't know how anyone can say this was not a crime against humanity. maybe i haven't been a good enough person to come out a say straight out in response to your questions that HA katyosha rockets falling on civilians are crimes but i never said they weren't.

i'm sure you know in your heart that any form of military operation targeting babies and civilians is a crime. i'm sure you didn't mean that.

if you're not sure about the legality, check the human rights watch report on this past july war and the amnesty report. i had that linked at one point.

Lirun said...

neither of which are authorities on the matter..

my point is that these acts were not done in isolation and i cannot believe that women and children were specifically targeted..

for clarity however - if they were then yes that sort of behaviour is a crime under international law..

i cannot however ignore the fact that i was a target myself and that my government with its glorious incompetence sought to defend me as it must under the same jurisprudence of international law that you refer to..

Rhiannon said...

http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/fa/20011030.fa.01.ram

Push the lever about 3/4 of the way to the end. At around that point Chris Hedges speaks of what he witnessed israeli soldiers doing to Palestinian children.

Why would they treat Lebanon any different? And aren't the Iraqi children dying for the precious security of "israel"? Sure they are.

Mirvat, there will be no harmony with arrogant thinking like this "friend" of yours.

"I cannot believe that women and children were specifically targeted."


Believe it sweetpie, believe it. Consider yourself collared. From this point on, there will be no excuses for you to make for your "israel". Your israeli "soldiers" are like no other on earth. Chris Hedges can attest to this fact:

The interview was a powerful antidote to the usual white-washing of Israel by the media, and the piece that appeared in Harper's is quite an eye opener. Here is one gripping quote:

"I have seen children shot in El Salvador, Algeria, Guatemala, Sarajevo, but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport."

Mr. Hedges repeated this observation during his interview, expressing disgust with the practices of the Israeli military and strong compassion for Palestinian suffering; he also bitterly dismissed the racist canard that Palestinians don't care for their children.


Forget it Leran. When you talk like that you are terrified to face the reality of this bastard creation you call your country. In reality you are in love with another's country. The more aggressively arrogant and twisted your talk, the more I know your intentions and so-called "concern" for the Middle East.

Lirun said...

interesting..

just wondering.. (verbal diar)Rhoeannon.. did you attend Mahmoud Ahmadinejad´s conference.. im sure you would have been very welcome..

Rhiannon said...

Poor lerad,

I do not have to listen to Ahmadinejad or any like him to realize how corrupt your terrorist military is and its horrid treatment of Arabs. Your terrorist nation invited me to a "conference" all its own. It's called the N.A. Media. Now I have your silly posts to add to my great education in how people can lose their souls over land.

Lirun said...

alla yihaliki ya binti

Lirun said...

do u really work at a customer complaints service counter?

Anonymous said...

So, why don't we stop all this B.S. and do what has to be done:
PEACE, MAKE PEACE, START TALKING, STOP THE KASSAMS, STOP THE STUPID RHETORIC AND THE STUPID LEADERS THAT MANTAIN ALL OF US IN THIS SEA OF MADNESS CALLED WAR.......