Monday, January 08, 2007

A useful comparison

I could not help while watching the funeral for the late president Ford to draw the comparison. I was wondering what kind of crimes did the late president commit and which, of these crimes, are already declassified. No one argues. Saddam was a terrible terrible man, but as always, I could not but feel humiliated at the idea of an Arabic politician/leader/dictator/butcher being executed, at the first day of the Muslim holiday no less, and an American politician/leader/dictator/butcher being honored and well remembered. The article answers my questions.

On a different note,
In response to a simple question to an Israeli commentator by mone which was if he thought the war on Lebanon this past summer was a crime against humanity, the Israeli point of view was that the Israeli government owes it to its people to defend the borders against any act of war. If that is the case, i wonder why governments do not owe an explanation to their people when they start an act of war or an act of invading another country or occupying foreign land. Americans do not blame Iraqis when they attack their troops. How come Israelis don't pressure their government to withdraw from the occupied lands? They encourage their leaders to defend them against acts of resistance. Why not encourage their government to eliminate the reasons that brought on this resistance in the first place? Ho come they don't hold their leaders accountable? I don't get it.

30 comments:

Lirun said...

hey vosh..

i think our general attitude with respect to the "farms" has been more syrian driven.. ie we were not going to give it to syria - notwithstanding thier claim for it because you guys said it was yours..

i would be very supportive of israel withdrawing from those lands and for them to be held by the same UN people that line the border between israel and syria pending a resolution between lebanon and syria..

however.. my guess is that if syria was given that land - the HA would not have hailed qassams on syria.. i have doubts with respect to how genuine the resistance movement is..

still waiting for our boys to come home by the way.. your government promised in clear language that they would be returned..

snurdly said...

Mirvat-

You say the 1967 war (occupied lands) is the reason for the "resistance". The PLO was created in 1964. Israel views Syria as another extension of the PLO...even if there were no 1967 occupied lands, the rest of Israel is still occupied territory *s* The Arabs and Israelis disagree on which court the ball is in.

Anonymous said...

well said mirvat ,very well said

i would never imagine myself defending saddam ever ,he deserves whatever he gets but it had to be done the right way by his won people after a fair trail..
in a country where there's a lerking civil war the timing had to be chosen with more responsability,the way it was done it doesn't mean anything other than aggrevating the inflammed secterian tension ..

anyone i must say one dictator is gone ,waiting for the rest by our own hands next time hopefully

jameela

Anonymous said...

Lirun:
"however.. my guess is that if syria was given that land - the HA would not have hailed qassams on syria.. "

You maybe right they may not attack Syria even if Syria gets it BECAUSE people hate your guts there more than anything...get out of all occupied lands then defend your country lawfully...Syria publicly on Television said we DON'T NEED THIS LAND, THIS LAND BELONGS TO LEBANON... But you still bring the same excuse..

The crimes your governement committed against Lebanon will not be forgotten and thousands of homeless people and people who lost their relatives and a country that went back 20 years in civilization term will not forget your barbaric attacks...Mr. Peace Man

Lirun said...

truth hurts mone.. one day you too will be able to open your ugly eyes..

peace

Anonymous said...

You are soooo absorbed with your stupid illusionary mind... Listen ... let me clarify something for you silly man, Dali Lama is political peace man, Ghandi is a political peace man, you are NOT a peace man, your country is NOT a peaceful nation as long as it commits war crimes against humanity...

You commit crimes then you come back and want to shake hands FOR HOW LONG YOU WANT TO KEEP ON DOING THIS COWARDLY ACT???

Lirun said...

mone..

whats wrong mate.. someone giving you a hard time at work?

;)

Lirun said...

and one more thing.. i just checked your blog.. i find it interesting that you deleted my comment on the cancer issue.. all i tried to do was share my experience as someone who recently watched his mother and aunt both fight the disease shortly after losing his grandparents to it..

i'm not sure what you are afraid of..

i today moved into a building that houses both jews and arabs.. i have actively sought arab and other non jewish friends.. i donate and support shared causes.. blog my ass off :).. and all you do is throw personal accusations when you dont agree with an assertion of fact - rather than challenging the fact.. dude.. i reckon you are part of our problem..

Anonymous said...

I can shake hand with you if you first fess up that what your government did is criminal in Lebanon, it is wrong to keep occupied lands that are aggravating the solutions, and that peace means no killing... anything else you do apart from that is simply masking the real issues and I will always bring back what you are trying to hide...

btw,I came to your blog by an Arabic friend who recommended it. I thought YA someone from there really wants peace.

Soon I figured things out, you are nothing but a mask and propaganda machine... in my opinion you are more dangerous to peace than the real soldiers on the ground your government sends for its missions.

About deleting your comments, I did and I think Mirvat should do too because you are Not Real for Peace... You are Fake..A propaganda machine.. Mirvat is simply serving your purpose..

(Interesting that you posted these comments on my blog once it heated up between us in other posts.. coincidence? I don't think so..)

Mirvat said...

so i'm simply serving Lirun's propaganda now?
by saying that mone, you made me feel the same way lirun did a while back when he wanted me to delete rhiannon's comments.
i deleted his comments back then because i don't like intimidation of any kind. even the indirect kind.

Anonymous said...

Sorry Mirvat, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings at all..
What I meant to say, this is how he alike see it, from your perspective you are being open to different views..and inviting anyone to peaceful discussion.. your intent is pure.. I should have clarified it further.. Anyways here s a big kiss for you, and please forgive me before you go to sleep tonight :(

Mirvat said...

oh no.. no feelings hurt at all and a kiss from me :)
these things are always weird i know.. during the war i found asking Doha to moderate some of the insulting comments on her forum because leaving them might be serving their propaganda. i know your heart is in the right place mone but now i see that it's hard to know where to draw the line when it comes to moderating.
i simply don't give myself the right or the authority even on my blog to block people's views.

Anonymous said...

:)
You are so right Mirvat about moderations...it s very tricky knowing when to draw the line...

Anonymous said...

There is a dilemma that overrides the consciousness for most of us. This stuff and that theme of Mirvat here goes beyond occupation, settlements, wars and other "outer" things who actually would only reflect pictures of inner turmoil of what is going on within ourselves. The outer part is an image of the inner. Please don't forget that.
Yes sure, I can talk all day long what I think about Israeli settlements and why they are illegitimate , and I can muse during nighttime about Arab stupidities and their knuckle-head tactics. But what does it do? Nothing!
It is only the people who PHYSICALLY live in the region of conflict who are able to bring about some change. That's my opinion. Our wishy-washy small talk on the internet only reflects ... well, what does it reflect? Well, maybe the muttering of "privileged people abroad", or some kind of people I have yet not categorized. Sounds harsh? Oh, don't feel hurt!
There is one good thing about this internet and blogging thing though, it keeps us busy discussing issues we otherwise would have to fight on the ground,

Lirun said...

zee - i am not a muttering outsider..

i very much belong and live here in the middle of the middle east..

i am baffled by people like mone that assume i have some sort of agenda.. and request me to make apologies on behalf of my government.. mone would you like to apologise for syria supplying missiles to the HA that hit us? i dont think so..

if you have any care for peace whatsoever then you should be making the most of peaceful dialog rather than venting frustrations that have nothing to do with me in a manner that is against me?

am i supposed to strap explosives to my back and attack my parliament? is that what you did when syria did unclean things? or should i be packing up my chattles and leaving my beloved region and throwing stones from afar at those left to deal with the mess?

i gather that nonetheabove is wise..

yours
forever stupid and illusionary minded.. :)

lirun

Mirvat said...

you're the one who says that we can make a difference lirun. how can we make a diff if we're not willing to? don't strap yourself or throw stones, organize protests, spread the word around you.. get together with andrey and a bunch of friends and ask to meet your PM.
but that is if you believe in peaceful ways all the way.
you supported your government in their choice to bomb lebanon, so it's not about what you can do anymore, it's about what you want to do... instead of repeating all these excuses for not giving back the shabaa farms and the golan, (come on.. are you really convinced?) ask the gov to give it back.. be honest for a minute here.. really answer the post.. if your government owes you to defend you, why doesn't owe you to be peaceful and to stop provoking when you pay the price and to eliminate the reasons for the surounding contries to be against it.. be honest here.. how can you be convinced israel is weak and needs to defend itself? when it captures land and won't return it? does the weak provoke? come on you guys.. i haven't once heard an honest straight answer on the ind of denial that makes you believe what your government tells you.

snurd, the PLO was born from the heart of the poor displaced desperate refugees and HA was born in the year of the israli invasion to lebanon.. what's you point? that was then.. we're talking about now. HA has a mission and it involves bringing back the land and the prisoners.. if the mission is done, there's no reason/excuse for all this..

Mirvat said...

even if it's a stretch zee, but let me once and for all object to the 'privileged people abroad" that keeps coming up. we are not abroad because we are privileged and why do you assume that anyway? is being in the US or elsewhere a privilege? as far as some of my palestinian friends go, my dear, they are abroad because they were kicked out of their country and they don't have one anymore.. one of them couldn't get a visa to europe and when he asked the embassy what the problem was, they came back to him with the problem is that you're palestinian....
you might think this person is privileged... he definitely has it better than the poor people living there still and the operative word is still... but he is not privileged yet he will blog and let his opinions out and share his resentment the ways he can...

as a lebanese, i never felt privileged a day in my life. we're not abroad because we are special or because we love it here... you can tell from our writings how much we love our country.. decades after being abroad lebanese all go back at least once every year. but sadly, we are also being kicked ot of our country... yes kicked out... this latest war was a blow to the economy that the country won't recover from any time soon. it breaks our heart that we can't find jobs back home.. we are KICKED OUT of our country... nothing privileged about that...
so we do what we can do meanwhile.. we get an education trying to bring prosperity later on and hoping it won't be bombed again, we get an education so that people like you might start thinking about arabs differently when they meet us, we wor hard because it's all we can do, and we discuss the situation and try to come up with possible solutions which is a way to give and take to be exposed to other opinions.. that way when we go bac and make the population of the ME, we can at least say we are well informed of what's out there and unlike generations before us, we are not closed to the world..finally, which is what seems futile to you.. we talk about the problem with israel which still feels the most obvious thing to do for a lebanese and an israeli who are talking.

Anonymous said...

Lirun, same old story, it s becoming extremely boring but I will answer your questions again CLEARLY.

I AM AGAINST ALL MILITARY ACTIONS EVERYWHERE... GET IT?

I am concentrating on the latest tragedies that made me loose nights of sleep this summer. Your Government bombings of Lebanon...a country you still occupy a piece of it.

What baffles me, is that there are Lebanese that subscribe to your site while you STILL Haven't Denounced the recent killing against their country... Maybe they are all not residing there..but I don't get it..They are simply sidetracked with your peace talk, completely hypnotized, or maybe it shows we, as Arabs are very naive.

I am asking you again, to reconsider your position, be true for peace, Denounce your government bombings against Lebanon and do one thing good in your life instead like Mirvat said, lobby your government to withdraw from occupied territories and hold protests asking for investigations for the killings in Lebanon...The result of which was barbaric killings of civilians and bringing back the country years in civilization, while strengthening the holds of HA, and your two smart soldiers are still there!!

snurdly said...

Mone--

The current reasoning for the existence of HA and PLO is occupied land...the area of mistrust lies in how much land each side feels is occupied. I've read you guys defending the Arab rejection of Palestine in 1948, yet you say only pre-67 borders is occupied. So let's pretend we're in 1966...the PLO has just been formed...Syria and Egypt are preparing plans to amass troops along Israel's border.

Egypt did the respectable in '77...Assad and HA are doing just the opposite. Perhaps too little land was taken to end the hostilities? Perhaps Israel pulled out too soon from S. Leb.? How come HA is stronger now after 2000? The militias were supposed to be disarmed. Ooops, a strike against trust. Give back Shaaba Farms now? Wishful thinking to a sane person. The reasoning doesn't add up.

It would seem pretty simple for Assad to say he's serious about the Golan and pull a Sadat...or maybe he's afraid he'd end up like Sadat? I'm all for Assad pulling a Sadat and having a Camp David-style accord...but show some initiative.

Rhiannon said...

Right - bloody - ON, Mone!

Instead of this "jewish" state that the israeli government insists that it is, the reality is this state is that of DENIAL!

Oh yeah, Mone. Arabs can be very naive. I argue with them all the time. Who would have thought that the Lebanese would be in dire need of education among other Arabs.

Soooooo....you deleted one of Lorov's posts, Mone? COOL. Hugs and kisses.

Did snid mention the PLO? And he actually got all the letters in the right order? Wow.

Rhiannon said...

How about disarming YOUR terrorist militias, snudzl?

Ramallah provocation

January 5, 2007

The deadly raid in Ramallah is an aggressive and dangerous provocation. This is not the way to build a cease-fire, nor anyway helpful to advance peace.

At the very hour when the Prime Minister of the State of Israel and the President of Egypt held a meeting which is supposed to bring us back on to the route to peace, somebody decided to send soldiers, bulldozers and helicopter gunships to conduct a deadly midday raid into Ramallah. The largest Israeli force to enter this city in the past four years conducted a prolonged gun battle in Ramallah’s main square, in front of international TV crews, and killed four Palestinian inhabitants. It was an act of heavy-handed aggression which immediately wiped out Olmert’s so-called “gestures” to President Abu Mazen (none of which, incidentally, was carried out).

Either somebody deliberately intended to create a deadly provocation, or it was an unbelievable show of stupidity and incompetence. In either case, the dire result is the same, as is the conclusion: this is not the way to build a ceasefire, and certainly not the way to advance towards peace. If the deadly IDF raids into the West Bank cities are not stopped, there will also be no quiet in Sderot and on the Gaza Strip border, and all of us will sink deeper into the abyss of hatred and bloodshed.

For further information: Adam Keller, Gush Shalom Spokesperson adam@gush-shalom.org

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/press_releases/1167948066

Well sudz, at least Adam Keller can be honest...what's YOUR disgusting, heartless, phoney little excuse?

Rhiannon said...

[larab] " think our general attitude with respect to the "farms" has been more syrian driven.. ie we were not going to give it to syria - notwithstanding thier claim for it because you guys said it was yours.."

Whaaaa???

What the devil are you on about??

Do you just say these things because you like to sound funny, or do you say these things because, in essence, clearly, there really is no reasoning when it comes to the mind of an israeli??? Which is it?? Or is it both? Hence, the aborted delivery of snuzz: "Wishful thinking to a sane person. The reasoning doesn't add up."

Well no damn kidding! THAT IS...IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT "ISRAEL"... These lands that "israel" STOLE - get it? - slow absorption if you must - S - T - O - L - E as in CONFISCATED - C - O - N - F - I - S - C - A - T - E - D as in ILLEGAL - I - L - L - E - G - A - L: according to the immediate laws of the land, according to the World Court, According the World Community, According to Amnesty International, According to the UN, According to the TEN COMMANDMENTS - THOU SHALL NOT STEAL, THOU SHALL NOT KILL, THOU SHALL NOT LIE, THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALL NOT COVET.........all these "shall nots" add up to transgressions of "israel's" thievery of land.

Just give the land BACK! It's nothing to do with you if Syria and Lebanon want to kill each other over it, which, btw, should tickle your israeli fancies.

Anonymous said...

I know, I know Mirvat - I am reading your lines and my heart feels pain. Im just so utterly tired of all the misery in that region...
Yes, by saying what I said I put myself into a "shoe-box" as well, granted.
Nevertheless, I should encourage you and some of your ex-pats to actually feel privileged. There is nothing wrong with that. It's pride in a good way and it somewhat cleans the stigma of being a perpetual victim.
Lirun , I know that you are not a "muttering outsider" - disregard that label, and if the sticky side still is sticky, stick it on my coat instead.

Lirun said...

hey mirv..

you know i value your friendship but the dialog here has sank to a new low..

i am shifting to other blogs for a while where discussion is more productive..

take care bella..

and for the record mone- i did lobby my government.. i wrote to every minister expressing my wish to achieve a ceasefire.. i partook in protests and heck i dont need to account you.. your personal attacks are stupid.. you dont even know me..

and you rhiannon.. get back to your customer complaints job - i am sick and tired of reading the poison you unload after your grind in the scum of the merk of rot of the customer service world..

i am guestsing that you are unable to separate your personal bitterness from your views and your rants are random and meaningless..

wishing you all a great january..

adios

Mirvat said...

sure, later lirun

Anonymous said...

LirunThat is good improvement, at least you didn't threat to sue anyone this time ;)

Zee I had this funny (or not so) fantasy; what would happen if we were all in the Middle East?

Let s start with positions:
----------------------------
Mone President of Syria,Basically I m just watching what is going on, picking my nose, and hoping I don't get any of this

Mirvat President of Lebanon, very optimistic about bringing her country up after years of war

Rhiannon is a refugee on the borders somewhere, She is continuously folding her tint and on the move..She has 3 chickens she loves

Zee is a UN soldier, from US but born in Switzerland, basically he is on the borders watching rockets go both ways while reading his Playboy Magazine

Snurdly is the Prime Minister of Israel, He was war criminal back many years, but that is OK, it s been many years and now he has smartened up and is very professional.

Andrey is a war general on the ground, he immigrated years back to Israel now he is enrolled in the army and kicking serious ass

Lirun is the Minister of Propaganda and a speaker of the government, he has read many books on psychology and Human behaviors.

In few years
---------------
Snurdly is really annoyed by the rocks of the Palestinians, they just don't seem to stop..bloody kids, so he decided to attack Lebanon...relieving the pressure from his government to do something..It happens so that Lebanon started doing great Tourism wise, in fact has taken the light out of Israel..why not? Oh He needed an excuse, so he went to Rhiannon and stole her tint and killed her 3 chickens in response and predictably Rhiannon looked around, took 2 tires, set them on fires and threw them over the borders, they in turn, miraculously landed on a house and burned it down..

But, Before Andery finally gets his orders, he has to wait for Lirun who starts a verbal attack on Mone, the nose picking is environmentally not friendly and does cause security threats for Israel, For sure he has helped Rhiannon with the Tire issue too, Zee is annoyed of Mone, this s really disgusting and files a complain to the head office, soon the whole world is annoyed of this fact and want to do something about it.

In few days Andrey pushes his airplanes and bombs the socks out of Lebanon, they need to get the terrorist Rhiannon out and kill Mone's incentives at same time..

After few weeks,

Mone, promised will never pick his nose again

Mirvat, still vowing to rebuild her country..oh after she finds her office's candles, since Andrey's army destroyed some serious infrastructure.

Rhiannon was not caught and she is still very upset about her 3 chickens, and waiting for Arabic Help Fund to give her cloth and a new tint.

Snurdly is busy with the phone being congratulated with this great mission which reduced world terrorism by at least a half.

Andrey has been promoted and may run to take Snurdly's job in few years.

Lirun, started a new peace initiative with neighbor countries and a fund to help rebuild the Burnt house that Rhiannon has destroyed.

Zee is settled in his new post on the border, the rocks still go by, but at least no more Nose Picking, he decided to help the US economy so he subscribed to both Playboy and Penthouse.. :)

refuter said...

I don't know. It seems a bit harsh to compare Saddam and Gerald Ford. I would say that Ford was never specifically involved (although one might consider standing idly by a crime) in any mass killings NOR in attacks against his own people in his own country. Outside wars are outside wars, but leader has responsibility to his own people, not other nations (as was the case with East Timor and Ford). I do not have to say anything about Saddam.


Dmitriy
http://www.refuter.com

Mirvat said...

mone, this is hilarious!!

dimitry!!!! it's you!! welcome to the site.
i know that by the standards i'm holding Ford, even clinton would be a criminal for what he did in kosovo but we have to keep in mind that 1- the US foreign policy is consistent throughout leaders. 2- most of the atrocities committed by saddam were under US blessing and encouragement.. leaving us with US leaders are better because they kill other people and not their own? even if i want to agree with that (which i don't, 9/11 ?) still not convinced.. a war criminal is a war criminal..
keep visiting :)

Anonymous said...

Mone,
I couldn't stop laughing. Tomorrow I will read it again.
Chickens and Playboy mags, what a combo.
You have a good evening - Zee.

Anonymous said...

Mazbout! One executed (on a muslim holiday) while others are still running out there