And Happy New Year all
Thanks again Chas,
Andrey, started by disagreeing but he proposed this:
"We start by suggesting the first step in a plan to bring peace". Let me start by not agreeing, as I think that we should start from the other end: How do you see the final solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? What will it be like, this situation, in which there will be an equilibrium between the achieved and unachieved demands of both sides, between what is just for these and those and of course what is just (period). Why start with this question? Because you can move the discussion on from here, with questions like: "What are the obstacles towards achieving that", "How do we deal with those obstacles" and so on.”
And so we did and this is what we came up with:
"We start by suggesting the first step in a plan to bring peace". Let me start by not agreeing, as I think that we should start from the other end: How do you see the final solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? What will it be like, this situation, in which there will be an equilibrium between the achieved and unachieved demands of both sides, between what is just for these and those and of course what is just (period). Why start with this question? Because you can move the discussion on from here, with questions like: "What are the obstacles towards achieving that", "How do we deal with those obstacles" and so on.”
And so we did and this is what we came up with:
( thanks mone, Snurdly, Lirun, Ingrid, Andrey, Ibn Bint Jbeil, Rhiannon and Zee for commenting and moderating)
I- SPECIFIC PLANS:
- Two-state solution: We all agree.
(Lirun suggested peace keeping force running along the borders)
- Fair peace:
(Israel is supported by the US and is the 4th strongest military power in the world but that shouldn't imply that Israel should use its power on its neighbor. Hamas, on the other hand, need to have defined 'demands'. The Palestinians need a fair representation on the way of their independence).
Which raised mone’s concern, “I wonder however, what is the exact ambition of the Israeli government? What is exactly the driven principles behind the Israeli Government backed by the US, especially after I found out more about the philosophy of the "elite" and their own ambition of controlling the world no matter how it maybe destructive to their people or others.”
We agreed that this won't get us anywhere for now.
- Defined borders and real independence:
- Defined borders and real independence:
(with the surrounding countries once and for all, sea, air and water. Plans should be presented to the UN, land mine maps and so on. 48 borders). Andrey said, “If, at least based on 67 borders, Gaza and the Bank should be connected, by land, constructing 2 parts of Palestine and 2 parts of Israel - all connecting in one point (use your imagination), I think that it would be fair, and it would give the Palestinians a better feeling about the arrangement - so they would not tell that they have been tricked. Also people would not have to pass through check points that way, while going from Gaza to the West Bank. Also, if the border includes jewish settelments inside the west-bank, they should be given the right to choose to stay under the Palestinian rule (there are many normal people behind the green line, not just settlers.”
1- Checkpoints should go
2- Settlements should go
Andrey said, “This is actualy not such an issue, water can be dealt with as we have seen in Jordan-Israel peace treaty, where Israel is obliged to supply a given amount of water to Jordan per year. Projects like the National Water Carrier can be built to Palestine, or better: Palestine can be connected to the soon to be built Israely-Turkish pipe line (of gas, oil and water). The question is about the borders between Israel and Palestine: there are some families scattered around the 2 sides of the border, and so on.”
- United Palestinian government:
- United Palestinian government:
Unified representation for Palestine in the form of a legitimate government diplomatically respected by the international community is crucial (A just well-defined withdrawal will push the two Palestinian entities in power into agreeing on the proposed solution. that way Hamas won't be obliged to dismiss Fateh and traitors because they conceded to whatever is given to them. something Arafat couldn't do during the Oslo accord).
- Economical prosperity:
(Palestine will need the help of other countries (hopefully Arabic countries as well) to recover economically. prosperity gets rid of anger). Rhiannon said, “Monetary concessions do need to be made to Palestine, for their agriculture, hospitals, and educational systems”.
- Points we didn’t agree on:
1- The refugees. The right to return
2- The prisoners
3- Shabaa farms and Golan heights.
II- IDEALLY:
- zee and Ingrid: SEPARATE RELIGION FROM STATE ON BOTH SIDES. STOP THE VIOLENCE ONCE AND FOR ALL.
- We need to learn from past mistakes. The unilateral withdrawal and the punishment mentality don’t work and is still under the abuse of power mentality.
- New beginning:
(how do we educate a new Israeli generation that is not mostly military and how do we raise a new Arabic generation that don't hate Israel?). "Recognition of Israel"?
- Think simple:
Any Israeli would not wish to bomb the Palestinians and any Palestinian would not wish to bomb the Israelis. We all agree on peace. How do we bring forth the people's opinions? Who's creating this? (the politicians and we're paying for it and our children will after us. we need to stop the denial. I say there's a dangerous theocratic mentality controlling us and you have to say there's a neo-Zionist movement trying to draw the map for the new middle-east. both scare me to death. we need to say that neither represent people like us. most of the poor people who just want to be safe and go on with their daily life are like me and you)
- Reinstate trust and show good intentions:
Return what belongs to Syria and Lebanon. Then if HA won't have a cause, Syria won't have an excuse and the Palestinians will be content if agreement was reached and they will ask to be left alone)
- Identity and acceptance:
mone thought, “Israel was formed in the middle of Arabic Region that speaks one language "Arabic" and has similar background. It actually seeks an isolated "identity" from its surrounding neighbors. Can this entity get accepted any time in the short or long future? Putting helpful emotions aside, I think not.”
To which Andrey replied, “Mone, there are many things that will bring Israel and Arab countries closer - tourism and economics. Tourism: Israelis love traveling, and if it's cheaper it’s better. Druze, Bahai, Christians - all have holy places in Israel. As for economics, I don't think that you can imagine the amount of Israelis in Arab countries once these markets will open. Another thing is lots of mizrahi citizens - many speak Arabic (so do many ashkenazy, who studied well at school), their home cooking is arabic, there is a whole branch of eastern music in Hebrew in Israel. And 20% of Israel are Arabs who speak both hebrew and arabic (so do many Palestinians). Anyway, in time of peace Israel won't be isolated, slowly but certainly everyone would be speaking Arabic here.”
And mone replied, “However, I don't think personally the solution will be ready in 2 or 10 years, I think, both sides will suffer much more before they brake the barriers (and the cement blocks that they just built) and try to shake hands and live together...”
And then we fell apart ... Oh well ... All the same anyway..
26 comments:
i have given the topic a lot of thought.. since last posting..
i am now in iceland and being quizzed by so many people on the situation and options for resolution makes you wonder..
one thing i think is unfair is 1.5 palestinian states and 0.5 jewish states.. so to avoid the need to shift hundreds of thousdans of people i think jerusalem indeed holds some solutions..
i say enlarge the municipal size of jerusalem to include a many of the settlements.. such that while the land will politically be palestine.. jews may remain israeli citizens and residents of their homes..
i dont think a palestinian state should be based on jewish ethnic cleansing..
First, Mirvat,, Long time no see.. Great Idea, promise to read it all.
Lirun is a "good friend." I can vouch that while we do not necessary agree, good intentions suffice to keep the dialogue going.
I've had a draining experience earlier on my blog: I wrote something about a suggested : Two states grow into one in the future - For a change, I meant well. I started getting some inquiries, then we ended up at an insult game. I believe that the deadlocks were: no return for refugees. Refusing to admit historic errors (and from both sides - "Israelis" refusing to even go choronologically.. i.e. Selective Historic Amnesia, and an odd mix up between Judaism as a Religion, Zionism as a principle, and "Citizenship" of a state which can be called "Israel", "Palestine", or as Ghaddafi (the philosopher clown) suggested "Israeltine". Also, "victimiziation which entails oppression" - showing now from the "Israeli" side, but will soon, if not already emerged from the Palestinian & Arab side.
I fail to see how people refuse to ponder over integration as a possible solution, and think that high fences are a long term answer? Anyway.. Madagascar is still a nice place to go.
Anyway, bottom line, every side retrenched, and we agreed to remain enemnies.
Anyway, I'd like to get to meet once you're in Beirut. Email me when you're around. Happy Christmas/Eid/New Year.
Happy New Year to you as well Chas!
And to You Mirvat as well!!!!
And of course everybody else ...!
Lirun, Chas said the devil is in the details and i agree :)
Fadi, i know what you mean. it's depressing sometimes but we have to keep communicating.
thanks for the input.
i would certainly contact you when i'm back home and happy new year and everything else to you too :)
Hey Chas. great stuff! i guess we'll take it on again after the holidays. happy new year
happy new year zee. all the best in 2007
Happy New Year Everyone :) :)
thanks fadi
;)
Mirvat, thanks for your time to seperate it all and write it out so well. The overview is quite clear and it's a shame that it 'fell apart' but you know, this is only a first try! Theoretically, we're still locked in the same room right? Did someone not throw away the key until we came out with a good working plan? (or did I just dream that up??lol)
I think I will print it out so I can think about some more. Happy New Year Mirvat..this is a good seque into it..good intentions of people with opposing viewpoints..
hugs
Ingrid
Thanks Ingrid and happy new year to you too :)
you're right, chas said the room should remain locked till we all come out with a final agreement :)
i guess it didn't quite fall apart as much as it reached a dead point. chas put it nicely, the devil is in the details and this is where we starting bickering again.
all in all though, we all agree on the big picture and this was very nice to know. at least on this blog, i know i won't fight with any of the 'room contributors' anymore since i saw a level of compromise and understanding that i won't forget. as i write this and realize that i really mean it, i'm more hopefull. it only took some communication without finger pointing and being defensive.
anyway, thanks again and have a great day tomorrow :)
THE LAW OF RETURN
Jewish women attended the establishment conference
from many countries, including Argentina,
New Zealand, India, Brazil, Belgium,
South Africa, and the United States.
Each woman had more right to be there
than any Palestinian woman born there,
or whose mother was born there,
or whose mother's mother was born there.
I found this morally unbearable.
My own visceral recognition was simple:
I don't have a right to this right.
The Law of Return says
that any Jew entering the country
can immediately become a citizen;
no Jew can be turned away.
Andrea Dworkin
September 1990
==========
The true answers to living in harmony begins in "israel", when each Israeli must come to realize, like Andrea, that their government is killing the sanity of their people.
One day in Hebrew School
I argued in front of the
whole class with the principal;
a teacher, a scholar, a survivor,
he spoke seven languages
and I don't know which
camps he was in.
In front of the whole class,
he told us that in life we had
the obligation to be first a Jew,
second an American,
third a human being, a citizen of the world.
I was outraged.
I said it was the opposite.
I said everyone was first a human being,
a citizen of the world…..
otherwise there would never be peace,
never an end to nationalist conflicts
and racial persecutions.
Maybe I was 11.
He said that Jews had been killed
throughout history precisely because
they thought the way I did,
because they put being Jews last;
because they didn't understand
that one was always first a Jew--in history…
in the eyes of the world,
in the eyes of God.
I said it was the opposite:
only when everyone was human first
would Jews be safe.
He said Jews like me
had had the blood of other Jews
on their hands throughout history;
that had there been an Israel,
Jews would not have been
slaughtered throughout Europe;
that the Jewish homeland was
the only hope for Jewish freedom.
I said that was why one
had an obligation to be
an American second,
after being a human being,
a citizen of the world:
because only in a democracy
without a state religion
could religious minorities
have rights or be safe
or not be persecuted
or discriminated against.
I said that if there was a Jewish state,
anyone who wasn't Jewish
would be second-class by definition.
I said we didn't have a right to do
to other people what had been done to us.
More than anyone,
we knew the bitterness
of religious persecution,
the stigma that went
with being a minority.
We should be able to see
in advance the inevitable consequences
of having a state that put us first;
because then others were
second and third and fourth.
A theocratic state, I said,
could never be a fair state….
and didn't Jews need a fair state?
If Jews had had a fair state
wouldn't Jews have been safe
from slaughter?
Israel could be a beginning: a fair state.
But then it couldn't be a Jewish state.
The blood of Jews, he said, would be on my hands.
He walked out.
I don't think he ever spoke to me again.
Andrea Dworkin
September 1990
Israel: Whose country is it anyway?
=========
That woman, as a child, had the same profound insights as Rachel Corrie.
"“We have got to
understand that they
dream our dreams
and we dream theirs.”
The late Rachel Corrie, at age 10
I certainly hope, leren, that in the new year your tiny "insigts" will have grown some by 2008 - for the sake of "your country".
thank goodness moshka.. mine is flickering..
into darkness...........this israeli's refusal to see light and truth......and so be damned his "country"...
Get in line.
outstanding effort. Unfortunatly what some say and do conflict. I don't trust some of these commentators. I would have been part of this conversation if it weren't for a couple of threats. Hence the anon signature.
But keep on trying, you never know when hope previals. I wish those in power would try.
trust is the first link.. if you come without trust then the exercise is pointless.. my problem is i know nothing of most of my fellow bloggers - who prefer to remain shadow bloggers.. its like chatting with the wind.. you cannot see their perspectives or understand their angle and they deny you the opportunity to empathise through thier anonymity..
peace talks will inevitably require personal assurances.. you cannot lean on the assurance of a phantom..
mirvosh and i have verified eachother´s existence aside from this forum so i know she is a legitimate individual with genuine views.. i cant say as much with regards to many others..
perhaps this is merely my own personal limitation..
happy new year to you all..
why mirvosh anyway? :)
mirvosh is the izraelification of mirvat.
trust is earned and cannot be given to those who threaten and bully. Its sad i know. but being burned too many times keeps you away from the fire.
izraelification of mirvat?? Not sure why you need to do that? or is it you like to put on your izraelification filter glasses to see everything thru them?
From past conversations, you are very tricky Lirun, you have this peace blog, sweet talk but between the lines you throw lines that are very strong yet limited. By doubling the talk, inviting people to consider your peace views and with it you pass your extremist views..
Snurdly and Andrey are much clearer with their views. You play with Mirvoush and sweeten things up and with it you throw your propaganda all over.... You at one point even threatened Mirvoush :) I can't believe she is allowing you to comment anymore..but that is her business...
Anyways now she has mellowed down a bit, you come back with your same techniques,
...Anyways
Peace,
mirvooshka.. because thats (today) what flows off my tongue the second i unplant it from my cheek.. :)
propaganda? is that what you call my opinions.. mone my friend.. i think your last comment could easily be an accurate description of your approach..
my views are in fact dynamic.. they have changed over time.. my wish for peace hasnt however and the expression of that desire remains the purpose of my blog and even moreso my blogging.. whether you find the messages palatable or not is an issue for you.. not for me.. and if i remind someone that racial vilifaction is a crime then i have done nothing but restate law and if i suggest that i may exercise my rights then i am merely reminding you that they do not disappear merely because someone believes that their verbal excrement is paramount and omni-worthy..
anyway - my favourite evolution - tying all these points together is that in addition to enjoying the banter.. i actually like the 'vosh.. we started as enemies but now we listen to each other.. on many points we even agree and most importantly we have mutual respect.. which may - if i may be so bold and at the risk of being terribly wrong - be the reason she does not moderate me off these commentaries..
if nothing else i love this fact.. mone dude.. you may think that for this reason i am somehow "dangerous" as you stated in the past.. inshalla amen that all worldly dangers seek peace and start devoting hours of every day to communicate this to the world..
You didn't get what I mean my friend... It was about your approach/technique but never mind...
Regarding peace, I appreciate what you are saying here, but every time I remember your lecture about the war on Lebanon, I tend to completely forget everything else you mentioned. It is simply a crime, and any peace man should recognize that.
Maybe your peace is limited to "your" peace. Your borders peace.. your hometown peace..I dunno... If I were you I would lobby this stupid government, if there is truly democracy there, to get out of Shebaa Farm Immediately then you can defend borders with Israel, until then Lebanese have rights to defend this occupation forces...
This is "My" propaganda... Propaganda of truth and peace, I will always mention what happens to Lebanon this summer to my best ability...and on every occasion.. if the world forget it will happen again..guaranteed.
Same goes for 9/11 and the environment issues.
One force tries to attack with their propaganda of lies, and the more you repeat it, the more it becomes acceptable, therefore, the only way on the other team, is to keep repeating their story....and expose the lies..without giving up..
[lerent] "perhaps this is merely my own personal limitation...."
Heh,heh,heh....
First true words spoken since lerind's inception. Indeed, very limited, extremely limited, his "views" on this topic of ""israel"", PALESTINE, and LEBANON.
You're on target Mone, when you say about snurd being much more obvious. With snurdl, you read his stuff, roll your eyes and laugh.......and suffer nausea from time to time.
With leref, who enjoys threatening lawsuits and defamations of character...but he has such great unfounded evidence to base his threats on... he is our true blue "elie wiesal-wannabe"...well so much for promoting "peace" and "harmony"......
Yeah.....honesty falls by the wayside. It's okay to embrace organizations who stroke the back of zionists, but when these same organizations condemn "israel" for war crimes, SUDDENLY these organizations are not only unembraceable...but their credibility is no good.
Another "charming" zionist ploy by our dear lerund. But do we holler and scream lawsuit and jail time? In light of what is happening in Palestine and Iraq with children dying from sickness, and being murdered everyday, and in light of what happened to Lebanon, and what is happening to people and children today with cluster bombs...all these "DELIGHTS" raining down on these countries thanks to our great "god" neighbor "israel", all for its "protection" and "security" ...ad nauseum, I find it amazing the leniency given to lerund by Mirvat and others.
Quite amazing.
[damon] "trust is earned and cannot be given to those who threaten and bully."
I agree. I am assuming you are speaking of larun.
BTW, I have briefly glimpsed laren's blog - once - and once was enough and I winced glancing over the postings. Not refreshing at all. The same stale zionist talk and pretending to want harmony. Pretending to be peaceful bloggers, all the while the veneer for contempt for "israel's" neigbours is so very thin. I might as well be staring into a crystal ball to see when the next illegal and bloody invasion of Lebanon by its "peaceful neighbor" is going to take place.
i find it absolutely hilarious that rhiannone manages to find a variation of lirun's name every time.
mone and rhiannon, you guys know my views and based on that you should know how much i disagree with some of the opposing views.
i would say mone's description of lirun's tactic is somewhat true but believe it or not however, what lirun is saying is true. i started bickering with him since june, and i felt that his technique is like a wolf dressed as a lamb. he projects himself as the peace loving side and slips his opinions meanwhile. with time i came to understand that he doesn't mean to do this. a lot of the language he used, which i point it out to him, showed me that a lot of his opinions are subconsciously rooted, which could be the same for a lot of arabs on the other side. this is when i stopped bickering because i see how hopeless it is.. instead lately i'm trying to focus on the solutions, instead of changing how he feels. and i say 'feels' instead of thinks because this is where these opinions come from...
so mone and rhiannon, it's not amazing that lirun is still commenting here and it's not me becoming melow.. it's the reality that we all have diff opinions and if we don't face it on blogs, where are we going to face it? also you can't argue or attempt change with people who already agree with you, so lirun is the perfect commentator needed for this sort of posts.
as for mutual respect, lirun, this goes without saying of course.
our first discussion was:
lirun: i want peace. i want to go to be able to go to lebanon for a vacation.
Mirvat: after the july war, i wouldn't want to see an israeli on lebanese land. don't you see how we feel?
Lirun: why are you against peace?
Mirvat: can't you see i'm reflecting the feelings of my people to show you how wrong israel was by punishing lebanon? how is this helping anything?
from that we went to calling each other names.. Lirun insisted that i propagate hate and i'm biased and full of anger and only see my opinion and one view point... and so many other accusations up to the point of telling me i was encouraging racist comments... etc...
so what...
we're talking now and that's always better than not.
as long as we keep our principles and opinions but also an open mind and ability to understand the other point of view.. we are doing somethign right..
[Mirvat] "also you can't argue or attempt change with people who already agree with you, so lirun is the perfect commentator needed for this sort of posts."
I agree. I guess I should have gone further with what I really meant to say. While you originally wanted to take him off your blog because his comments were insulting and over the top(lawsuits, court action, blah blah blah)...I am not angry or disappointed that he is back on. What I was really trying to say is: On the Lebanese blogger forum and several other forums like the ones for Palestine and Iraq, and many others, I find these blogsites extremely fair, open-minded, and rarely do they delete posts unless they are technically pornographic.
I can't say the same for zionist-based blogsites. Wow what a shock. Seriously. They ban people who post commentary they do not like, they remove posts that hit close to home or shed new light on zionism's devious goals. It's clear who is fair-minded and wants an open discussion, and very clear who doesn't.
Basically, I am saying: the Israelis don't know how good they have it. Remember, they are pampered, schmoozed, wined and dined by the deluded 'christian' right. A most powerful organization of the church if ever there was one. Aside from the media, "israel" owes so much to the deluded for support, protection, money, and so on.
Also, they have much freedom on various blogsites. Much of their distorted and truthless posts should be deleted from many blogsites but they rarely are. They really do have the upperhand. So I have to laugh/cry when the complain about Arabs "parading" their dead, as they say. I have to laugh/cry when they complain how the Arabs use the media to their advantage. Huh??
It's a bit much. But I'm game for a good rocking argument.
The israelis have many platforms of which to work from. And if other people who support zionism want to climb on board it's easy and financially lucrative.
Not so for the non-zionists. Quite the opposite.
lirun is hebrew for "my happiness".. in hebrew we have countless words for happiness - each describing a different form of happines.. run pronounced like the verb describes a happiness that comes from within and is associated with music..
so when you mispell my name.. it actually really doesnt phase me.. because my name is not just a sound.. it is a meaning..
also.. mirv.. i think you touch an important point.. we need to acknowledge a combination of (a) eachother's world view - ie perception of fact.. which we are never likely to completelt reconcile.. and (b) eachother's emotional predicament.. our emotions are perfectly interlinked into our situation..
rhiannon, i see your point and during the war i was very upset with the freedom of the comments on some lebanese forums where i felt the propaganda was served by these comments. now that the feelings subsided, i'm more focused on reaching an understanding so i need to hear the other opinions to understand what's out there. in other words, i don't look at it as a war between us and them, where someone is trying to win the argument anymore because we all will lose at the end if people like us can't reach an understanding. i'm convinced that we should face eachother and reach a middle ground.
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