Saturday, January 03, 2009

It is getting much much worse it seems..
Israel is going on the ground offensive, as they call it. They say it will be a long operation. I'm not sure what the death toll is at this moment..
I don't know what to feel anymore. Thousands of casualties already and a hundred or so Palestinian children, according to CNN.. just don't know what to say...

13 comments:

Zee said...

I am going to be brutally harsh in my analysis. It doesn't really matter if 500 or 1000 people get killed in Ghazza this time around by Israelis - what matters is the mentality of destroying Palestinian land, infrastructure, buildings, agriculture by Israelis - making it impossible for them (the Palestinians) to ever gain solid ground.
As a westerner, I do not like Hamas. Their methods of fighting seem ludicrous and filled with fanaticism an angst, not a helpful combination. On the other hand I do understand their perpetual agitation. But does it serve the people?
As much as I despise Israels "offensive" into Ghazza, and as much as I believe they dig their own grave by doing so, I would like to bang logic into Hamas leaders to refrain from sacrificing civilians for their martyrdom cause.
But that will never happen. Violence is a game of few to be perpetuated forever. We as common people have no say in it.

Anonymous said...

Zee you speak like you read too much zionist rote.

Let us say there were no Hamas. israel would find "another Hamas".

israel needs to keep the violence going.

It won't get it's money, otherwise and its population will be swallowed up by Arab Muslims and Christians.

Hamas is just an excuse, a smokescreen.

Doesn't the swift mass murders and brutal violence against women and children in Palestine done by israeli squatters and the IOF tell you this???


-Rhiannon

Zee said...

Hi Rhiannon long time no see!
I don't quite understand your reaction. I thought it was clear in my comment that I condemn Israels action and I have spoken out about it right away on my own blog.
sunburst, musings on the go: Hanukkah present to Gaza
Maybe you would care to read it. (some interesting comments there, including one from Mirvat).
Be well, Zee.

Mirvat El-Sibai said...

so nice to see all the good old friends coming back together in a new heated discussion! sadly such a heart ripping occasion to do so..

Anonymous said...

Zee, you believe the zionist rote of "both sides".

I had to refrain myself from throwing a can of kidney beans at the TV set when livni, one of israel's many "darlings", demanded that there was no "both sides". Her interpretation is hilarious!

What is so amazing is that I agree with her, but I agree with the OPPOSITE of how she puts it!!!

Both sides are not even! Yes, livni, I agree.

You have to understand, Zee, israel cannot have, cannot stand, is terribly fearful, [it's whole existence is BASED ON FEAR and its stifling FORCE, OCCUPATION and THUGGISH VIOLENCE against its Arab neighbors], isreal will NOT TOLERATE a modernized, united, self-determined, successful ARAB world in the Middle East.

THAT IS ITS WORST AND PROMINENT FEAR. Probably its only fear, and all its sick bullish behaviours are based on that fear.

Therefore, the aggressor takes on the victims role. Demands sympathy from others while it continually commits mass murder against the true victims.

Hamas is sacrificing its defenceless population?

That is ZIONIST ROTE! One of their typical manufactured lies to brainwash the North Americans. That way Americans say, "well, I guess the Arabs deserve it."

Hamas is a smokescreen. Hamas did not break any ceasefire, israel did by illegally invading foreign territory and killing 6 or 7 Hamas soldiers. And don't forget the illegal blockade that stifles and starves Gaza. Hamas retaliation is seen by israel as an invitation to really reduce Arab population, keep the Arabs down, keep them living in misery, damage, amputate, stunt the growth, prevent education, and murder their children.

israel can't afford to have peace with the Arabs. It would lose with peace.

yes, Mirvat, it is terribly heart-breaking.


- Rhiannon

Zee said...

Rhiannon,
you are just such a stubborn girl, so much hot rhetoric!
Now tell me, what is your thinking about a solution? What would you do living in Palestine? What would be your approach? If you can answer that one sufficiently, your words become more than just steam out of a boiling kettle.
My stance on this issue is crystal clear: Have Israel clean up their settlements and outposts in Palestine, rip down fences and walls, restore water-rights, pay reparations to damaged properties including agricultural land. (and so on).
By the way, did you know that British Petroleum was doing drilling on the coast of Ghazza, for whom? Israel! That's an other factor to consider.
You see Rhiannon, the reason I get edgy at you is your choice of presumptuousness tone, that you always think you know it better, that for example I am supposed to be a Zionist lackey, which I am not and that only the "oh so poor" Arabs know how to cruise down the avenue of life with righteousness.

Doesn't history teach you nothing?
The only reason India nowadays is an independent country, is because the approach of non violent resistance chased out the British oppressors.
Now that is also the solution for Palestine, if I had to think up one living there. The fire crackers Hamas sends over to Israel do nothing. Actually they do something, they agitate the military in Israel to the degree that they are willing to bomb the living shit out of everyone in Ghazza.
You see, the situation has deteriorated over the decades since 1967, it wasn't always that grim. So I stand to my opinion that Hamas was not very helpful in the course of events.
And also, Rhiannon, I disagree with you that Israel would swiftly find a new "Hamas" to attack if the present one should cease.
So yet again, what would you do as a Palestinian living in Palestine?
Isn't that the question to ask instead of getting hissy fits about Zionism?

Anonymous said...

I would hope that I am HOT. I AM HOT ON TARGET. And I am STUBBORN for all the reasons that JUSTICE is defined by!

I just got done telling you about the BOTH SIDES ISSUE. zionist / jew-owned-operated media will say "both sides" ...AS IF Hamas is the same cruel, heartless, soul-less, violent entity that israeli terrorists are. It's a LIE. A lie of omission. Hamas has no where near the billion-dollar WMDs that israel has. WHITE PHOSPHOROUS among a multitude of horrors.

Hamas has NO WAY of invading israel, except lobbing their silly little rockets, which have killed under 5 israeli ARABS. That's right, israeli ARABS that do not get bomb shelters like the pure israelis do.

It is useless to blame Hamas. BTW, Hamas was originally started by israel/usa to bring down...WHO? THe PLO....ARAFAT.

Hamas transformed, became for its people and country. Now you have israel-usa backed FATAH Arab traitors going against Hamas.

All in a day's work for foreign policy.

I did not call you a zionist lackey. You simply buy into the lies about Hamas. Hamas isn't the ISSUE, its an EXCUSE!

I never said that Arabs were poor righteous perfections - and I don't appreciate you putting me on this silly defensive.

And I did mention Arab traitors on many threads, mubarek and those of Saudi Arabia, and Jordan. Arab leadership is rotten to the core and israel would have it NO OTHER WAY. israel FEARS ARAB MODERNITY and UNITY. They are half the reason israel gets away with mass murder. The USA is the other half.

Millions upon millions of murder, starvation, displacement of Arab people in and from their countries since the 40s. Another reason to be HOT and STUBBORN.



You say:
Have Israel clean up their settlements and outposts in Palestine, rip down fences and walls, restore water-rights, pay reparations to damaged properties including agricultural land. (and so on).

That's very nice. Now you understand why there is a Hamas. The blockade against Gaza by israel is an act of pure, vicious, unwarranted, unfounded aggression.

AND

your solution

WON'T

HAPPEN.

israel will never do that.

Another reason for Hamas - what do you expect Gazans to do?
Not get angry?
Not demand justice?

So it is useless to ask me about a solution. Why bother when the solution IS obvious, yet you forget the reason why israel came to existence is the reason why there will never be a solution.

We know what the solution is. And israel will have none of it.

And it is useless AGAIN for YOU to bring up the Ghandi thing.

That situation is not the same as what is happening in Palestine.


- Rhiannon

Zee said...

Rhiannon
What is the S O L U T I O N
for Palestine, and by that I don't mean the justificational arguments about having Hamas or not...

I agree with you on one point, the Israeli withdrawal of their enclaves within Palestine will not happen within my lifetime, unless I grow to be 300 years old.
It's a pipe dream - but somewhere you have to start.

Yes, and I will bring the "ghandi thing" over and over, and over again, simply because I am a practical and habitual pragmatic person when it gets down to world affairs. And in the bottom of my heart, I researched the the small portion of compassion I still have left for humanity at large, sieved out all options, came to a conclusion, and stick to my notion that Palestine could win back their rights ... but without the fumbling amateurish help of Hamas.

You, Rhiannon, you have no clue how anti-Semitic my stance actually is. It would blow you at least into the adjourning room if we ever met in the same house, or you might explode and be ejected through the next best window landing on the streets below, full of donkeys and ignorant peoples.
OK, so my "solution" is fraud, unpractical, unachievable - but it was still a suggestion, something to start with.
Now, show me some creative ideas on a silver platter without this mourning what historically and presently is wrong, give me inspiration Rhiannon!
There was a passenger plane landing on the Hudson River with 150 something people on board - yesterday. All of them survived. You see Rhiannon, miracles happen in mysterious ways.


And between you and me, don't be so angry, even though I understand your agitation.
Regards, Lukas.

Anonymous said...

AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY:

from your blog - "First I am going to argue for Israel.
The six day war in 1967 was warranted and a success. Israel had at that point been attacked and then responded with surprising force and determination."


M E N A C H I M
B E G I N has ADMITTED in the 1982 New York Times that Egypt was not ready for a war, which not only implies, but STATES CLEARLY that israel PROVOKED the 67 "war". That is just ONE part of the evidence against israel from that moment in time.


- Rhiannon

Anonymous said...

What the heck are you talking about?

You are being anti-semetic??? You want to be anti-semetic? This language of bullying tactics invented by the zionists has really done its work, achieved its aim.

SEMETISM / ANTI-SEMETISM is just another smokescreen / scam

Palestinians, Lebanese, Iraqis are SEMETIC

So why bother with this confusion / distraction of the zionist-invented "anti-semetism"?

I am semetic.

And what is with this "donkeys" and "ignorant people" nonsense? What are you implying here?

Some of the most wealthiest and educated people are IGNORANT. Please see alan dershowitz, a snudley "hero" no doubt.

I'll get back to you tonight, Zee. I have to go to work.

- Rhiannon

Zee said...

Rhiannon
I have a feeling that this discussion between you and me has turned futile and sour.
All I wanted to say, is that Hamas is not helpful for the Palestinian people in Ghazza, obviously.
Violence recruits more violence, no matter who roles the first pebble.
Have a good day!

and please, don't be technical in the future within your thinking, but a bit more practical. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

I am sorry Zee.

But I think I am by far more practical than you would dare give me credit for. I don't mean to be so sour towards you. But it is unfair for you to say I shouldn't be angry.

I would like you to understand that the israeli military at best is a FARCE. They do not fight, they do not know how to fight. They cannot handle war, they don't know the meaning or rules of war. What is happening to Gaza is PURE SOLID SOCIOPATHIC MASS MURDER DONE BY CALLOUS STREET THUGS REWARDED WITH AMERICAN MONEY AND WEAPONRY.

They don't dare fight man to man, on the ground, they would lose. Instead their "combatants" are women, children, grandmothers, grandfathers, medical & ambulance workers, UN medics, defenseless human beings.

I will be angry and disgusted.

Now over a 1,000 Gazans dead.

Hamas is not helpful? SURE IT IS. israel is losing the population war. And that hurts israel as much as Arab unity and modernization. The silly little rockets of Hamas scare the Eastern European descendants willy nilly, and they leave israel because they must be safe and secure! By that estimation a Gazan child is a LIGHT WARRIOR. He / She will die on their feet while the israelis live on their knees.

That is as practical as practical gets.

- Rhiannon
January 16 / 09

Zee said...

Rhiannon
I checked out all your links. Thanks for sharing.
It is indeed atrocious what is happening in Ghazza and in the rest of Palestine. I never denied that.
You are also correct with the "population factor" , I dimly remember that I pointed that out a while ago on my blog, that in fact Palestinians will outnumber Jews by far in the years to come.
I also, quite a while ago, put up a post that compared Israeli tactics (or rather attitude) with the the genocidal methods of Nazi Germany. I basically concluded by showing the hypocrisy of an once oppressed tribe/religion/people to act in exactly the same murderous way as their oppressors used on them.
Nevertheless - where do we go from now (soon February 2009)?!
I have listened to interviews of Israeli soldiers who were sickened by the methods and tactics used by the Israeli government, they were sickened by the corrupt commanders and politicians.
I have no doubt that quite a few Israelis disdain what is going on and would rather see a peaceful resolution. You have to take that into consideration Rhiannon.
Personally, I can see no end to this conflict, as long as Israel continues acting as an "overdog" and Palestinians act as "underdogs". Besides the illegal phosphorous bombs, there is in my opinion a much more lethal war going on - and it has to do with mindsets and preconceptions of either religious or ethnically nature - or both.
That is one side. The other is (as Mirvat pointed out so eloquently) is the hunger for power, corrupt power by few individuals, not to be confused with strength by many.
This "corrupt power" runs the world, and even an Obama will not change that course - though I do wish him luck :)
I "stick to my guns" though Rhiannon what Palestine is concerned. The method of fastest success will be a non violent approach - it would leave Israel dumbfounded - and then supported in particular in the eyes of the greater world community. (other countries than the US)
But as long as people (I don't even mean to say specifically Hamas at this point) peruse a confrontational avenue, the game is lost.
This is just a logical conclusion and has nothing to do with who you are or which side you stand on.
OK Rhiannon, if I would be the leading general of Hamas, I would order my soldiers to keep a low profile, tell the population to keep put - because the day will arise when Palestinians will again breathe fresh air. Until this day, people and children need to be save, not slaughtered. That is why I regret Hamas tactics...

On a personal note. I am going to NYC tomorrow (actually it is already today) haven't been there for a while. Will meet and stay with my friend in the Village who is a 78 year old progressive Jewish woman. I will chew over these issues once again and give you a report. Perhaps Mirvat's blog is not the right avenue for this. So send me your e-mail, mine is lukas.sculpture@gmail.com
Regards, Lukas (Zee)